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HolyGround >> Sex Before Marriage-Is It Unconditionally Wrong?


10/5/10 4:54 AM
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LMMAFan
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If a couple is committed to one another for life, why is a legal ceremony necessary to allow for lawful intercourse?  Is ALL premarital sex fornication?  What about a committed couple living with one another prior to marriage?  How does this appear evil?

 

10/5/10 7:15 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 NO!
10/5/10 7:26 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 Father loves you, be happy, he sent his son to die for you, so you are free of sin, you are not guilty of original sin, you was never given that test :)
10/5/10 9:13 AM
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Grakman
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LMMA, it would depend on what religion you follow. I'm not sure about Robert, but in traditional Christianity any sex outside of marriage has always been considered sinful.. I have posed the same question myself, say like a man and woman are stranded on a deserted island and no one is there to marry them. If they take vows between themselves and before God, is that considered marriage? Anyway, marriage is though usally a ceremony linking the couple's lives, families, and future together publicly not just between the two of them.


10/5/10 6:51 PM
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LMMAFan
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 My questions are directed toward traditional Christianity. 

I don't believe the bible states sex before a marriage ceremony or living together before a marriage cerremony constitutes sin.  In fact, it appears a huge stretch of fact based upon what the bible actually says.

What about a man and woman who love one another and intend to spend their lives together?  In what way would them having sex and living together meet the definition of fornication, other than meeting a non-biblical traditional "Christian" based definition of fornication?
10/5/10 7:14 PM
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Grakman
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LMMAFan -  My questions are directed toward traditional Christianity. 

I don't believe the bible states sex before a marriage ceremony or living together before a marriage cerremony constitutes sin.  In fact, it appears a huge stretch of fact based upon what the bible actually says.

What about a man and woman who love one another and intend to spend their lives together?  In what way would them having sex and living together meet the definition of fornication, other than meeting a non-biblical traditional "Christian" based definition of fornication?

 Seems like you already have it figured out. :)  Were you looking to debate on this topic?
10/5/10 7:21 PM
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LMMAFan
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Grakman - 
LMMAFan -  My questions are directed toward traditional Christianity. 

I don't believe the bible states sex before a marriage ceremony or living together before a marriage cerremony constitutes sin.  In fact, it appears a huge stretch of fact based upon what the bible actually says.

What about a man and woman who love one another and intend to spend their lives together?  In what way would them having sex and living together meet the definition of fornication, other than meeting a non-biblical traditional "Christian" based definition of fornication?

 Seems like you already have it figured out. :)  Were you looking to debate on this topic?
No.  I'm wondering if my interpretation is wrong and why the traditional message is preached if it is at best an exaggeration of what the bible says.
10/5/10 8:33 PM
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Grakman
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 Ok cool. :)

What would be the reason the couple would not get married, other than the deserted island scenario?
10/5/10 8:46 PM
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LMMAFan
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Grakman -  Ok cool. :)

What would be the reason the couple would not get married, other than the deserted island scenario?

 There are a myriad of reasons I can think of which would cause a couple to choose to either wait or abstain from a marriage ceremony all together.  Finances, family, disdain for a public or private secular ceremony, disillusionment with the government institution of marriage,  previous divorce, kids from a previous relationship, etc...
10/5/10 9:10 PM
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Grakman
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 Well, if living together is the same as being married, how are any of those a bar to actually getting married other than the disillusionment with the government institution of marriage? Or are you talking strictly just having sex but without even living together? Your initial post said a committed couple living together.

I can see why one would refrain from legal marriage if one of the parties has poor credit for example, but the rest.. well all those things will be the same even if you are just living together. 

The Bible tells us to flee even the appearance of evil.  It wasn't that long ago when couples living together were regarded as 'living in sin,' and a child born to a woman out of wedlock was called a 'bastard' and illegimate births were frowned upon. These days those values are considered old fashioned and even hateful in some circles.

I'm not sure off the top of my head but I can't recall a verse in the NT at least where it discusses sex outside of 'marriage' as anything but sinful. The Scriptures that talk about it always say husband and wife pretty much. I'm not a lawyer or anything, butI believe in most states if you live together without legal marriage but present yourself as married to other persons, you are in fact married by 'common law.'

Really, if there is a concern about living in accord with Biblical principles but they want to have sex without getting married... I'd say just wait til certain that they want to be married, or go ahead and get married. If they have these kind of questions it may be because their conscience is already bothering them.


10/5/10 9:44 PM
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Ridgeback
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It's always possible that after 2000 years of Christian history your interpretation is right and the vast majority of Christians who ever lived were wrong.  ;-)
10/5/10 11:12 PM
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LMMAFan
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Ridgeback - It's always possible that after 2000 years of Christian history your interpretation is right and the vast majority of Christians who ever lived were wrong.  ;-) 
Funny.  :-)  Tradition does not necessarily make something right as you know.  I am not convinced of my position by the way.  I have mixed feelings about this.  The institution of marriage has significantly evolved over the last 2000 years.  Do you not agree scripture is rather ambiguous as it relates to this subject? 
10/5/10 11:20 PM
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LMMAFan
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Grakman -  Well, if living together is the same as being married, how are any of those a bar to actually getting married other than the disillusionment with the government institution of marriage? Or are you talking strictly just having sex but without even living together? Your initial post said a committed couple living together.

I can see why one would refrain from legal marriage if one of the parties has poor credit for example, but the rest.. well all those things will be the same even if you are just living together. 

The Bible tells us to flee even the appearance of evil.  It wasn't that long ago when couples living together were regarded as 'living in sin,' and a child born to a woman out of wedlock was called a 'bastard' and illegimate births were frowned upon. These days those values are considered old fashioned and even hateful in some circles.

I'm not sure off the top of my head but I can't recall a verse in the NT at least where it discusses sex outside of 'marriage' as anything but sinful. The Scriptures that talk about it always say husband and wife pretty much. I'm not a lawyer or anything, butI believe in most states if you live together without legal marriage but present yourself as married to other persons, you are in fact married by 'common law.'

Really, if there is a concern about living in accord with Biblical principles but they want to have sex without getting married... I'd say just wait til certain that they want to be married, or go ahead and get married. If they have these kind of questions it may be because their conscience is already bothering them.



 My concern is living within biblical principles.  Do you believe "even the appearance of evil" is based upon secular interpretation of evil? 
10/5/10 11:41 PM
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Ridgeback
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LMMAFan - 
Ridgeback - It's always possible that after 2000 years of Christian history your interpretation is right and the vast majority of Christians who ever lived were wrong.  ;-) 
Funny.  :-)  Tradition does not necessarily make something right as you know.  I am not convinced of my position by the way.  I have mixed feelings about this.  The institution of marriage has significantly evolved over the last 2000 years.  Do you not agree scripture is rather ambiguous as it relates to this subject? 

Since fornication means any sex outside of marriage no I don't think scripture is vague, but I don't approach questions like that anyway.  The scripture calls the Church the "ground and pillar of the truth" and points many times to the necessity of having authoritative teachers to open up the meaning of scripture.  In other words, I don't think it is a traditional Christian approach to start with scripture.  Rather, one uses the standard of the Vincentian Creed, which is what most Christians have believed in most times.  Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant traditions have all remained on the same page with this issue.  The Christian rule has always been no sex outside of marriage.  It is not an easy rule, but I think it is a good one that leads to a more communal approach to sex (as Grakman pointed out, marriage is about relationships beyond the couple). 

And yes how marriage is sanctified has changed somewhat.  In Chaucer's day in England the church had little to do with establishing marriage, but it was understood that divorce was almost never granted and the vows of marriage were meant to be until one partner died.  
10/5/10 11:53 PM
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LMMAFan
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But how is marriage defined?  Is it a government institution or is it a man and woman who are committed to one another for life? 

I understand the definition of fornication.  I also understand we are to avoid the appearance of evil.  I don't understand how either applies to my example of a committed couple. 
10/6/10 12:12 AM
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Grakman
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How is marriage defined to whom? Speaking Biblically and within the tradition of Christianity, marriage is one man = one woman, til death do you part (pretty much). Other people and faiths may have a different definition.

Fleeing the appearance of evil: Sex outside of marriage = fornication = evil. Cohabitaing couple who are not married = sex outside of marriage = fornication.

If you present yourself to the community (each other's families, friends, etc)  as committed to each other enough to warrant living and acting as a husband and wife, you're essentially married in the eyes of the community and in most place, the eyes of the government anyway.

I enjoy the discussion LMMA but I'm not really sure what the hang up is; it seems like you're saying one can be married without being married? What's the point of that, unless like you said it's disagreement with the government institution of marriage or something? (fear of divorce courts?)
10/6/10 3:24 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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LMMAFan - 
Grakman -  Well, if living together is the same as being married, how are any of those a bar to actually getting married other than the disillusionment with the government institution of marriage? Or are you talking strictly just having sex but without even living together? Your initial post said a committed couple living together.

I can see why one would refrain from legal marriage if one of the parties has poor credit for example, but the rest.. well all those things will be the same even if you are just living together. 

The Bible tells us to flee even the appearance of evil.  It wasn't that long ago when couples living together were regarded as 'living in sin,' and a child born to a woman out of wedlock was called a 'bastard' and illegimate births were frowned upon. These days those values are considered old fashioned and even hateful in some circles.

I'm not sure off the top of my head but I can't recall a verse in the NT at least where it discusses sex outside of 'marriage' as anything but sinful. The Scriptures that talk about it always say husband and wife pretty much. I'm not a lawyer or anything, butI believe in most states if you live together without legal marriage but present yourself as married to other persons, you are in fact married by 'common law.'

Really, if there is a concern about living in accord with Biblical principles but they want to have sex without getting married... I'd say just wait til certain that they want to be married, or go ahead and get married. If they have these kind of questions it may be because their conscience is already bothering them.



 My concern is living within biblical principles.  Do you believe "even the appearance of evil" is based upon secular interpretation of evil? 



1 Corinthians 7:8-20 (New International Version)

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.
10/6/10 3:27 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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LMMAFan - 
Grakman - 
LMMAFan -  My questions are directed toward traditional Christianity. 

I don't believe the bible states sex before a marriage ceremony or living together before a marriage cerremony constitutes sin.  In fact, it appears a huge stretch of fact based upon what the bible actually says.

What about a man and woman who love one another and intend to spend their lives together?  In what way would them having sex and living together meet the definition of fornication, other than meeting a non-biblical traditional "Christian" based definition of fornication?

 Seems like you already have it figured out. :)  Were you looking to debate on this topic?
No.  I'm wondering if my interpretation is wrong and why the traditional message is preached if it is at best an exaggeration of what the bible says.



1 Corinthians 7:25-30 (New International Version)

25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep;
10/6/10 3:48 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Paul's understanding of the situation as seen above is that when a person gets married they are a virgin, unless they are a widow.

Now, if you are discussing the Church's right to grant or not grant a marriage, that is a different discussion. I think that is where you are going with this.

Why can't two virgins move into an apartment together, have sex, live with each other until old, die together and not be counted as not having sinned even though no one told them they were married?

Paul makes the conclusion above that when you are burning with sexual lust, you get married rather than sin. He is making the point that you are involving the church in getting married as he made it clear a few sentences later that he was making a CHURCH teaching with that statement:

"17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches."

So when Paul is talking about marriage, he is implying: It is a virgin or a widow who are single, if they are burning with lust to have sex, get married. This is a rule he lays down at all of the churches.

So, if you want to have sex, you must involve the the church and have a valid church wedding as these are rules laid down by Paul for members practicing Christianity.
10/6/10 5:16 PM
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toelocku
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just look to the beginning...

adam and eve were married when blood was shed and Adam knew his wife. thats it... we are even married if we even THINK about another women...YIKES!

obviously Jesus went to a marrieage supper and told paraboles about them so they are 'good' but not required.
10/6/10 6:09 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I am more and more convinced that a person who is spending his time figuring out what constitutes Christianity is almost completely powerless to actually practice it.  
10/6/10 6:34 PM
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Grakman
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Ridgeback -  I am more and more convinced that a person who is spending his time figuring out what constitutes Christianity is almost completely powerless to actually practice it. 
 What would you say to a person who asked you what constitutes Christianity? What is Christianity?
10/6/10 7:12 PM
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LMMAFan
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Edited: 10/06/10 7:18 PM
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toelocku - just look to the beginning...

adam and eve were married when blood was shed and Adam knew his wife. thats it... we are even married if we even THINK about another women...YIKES!

obviously Jesus went to a marrieage supper and told paraboles about them so they are 'good' but not required.
And this is the ambiguity I am referring to.  There are several passages in the bible which characterize marriage in this way.  In my opinion, this explanation of marriage is clearly more representative of what the bible defines as being married.  This is why I am inclined to believe my example of a committed couple are in fact married in God's eyes. 
10/6/10 7:12 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - 
Ridgeback -  I am more and more convinced that a person who is spending his time figuring out what constitutes Christianity is almost completely powerless to actually practice it. 
 What would you say to a person who asked you what constitutes Christianity? What is Christianity?
These days it is whatever people want it to be. It is pretty much a worthless word.
10/6/10 7:18 PM
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LMMAFan
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Ridgeback -  I am more and more convinced that a person who is spending his time figuring out what constitutes Christianity is almost completely powerless to actually practice it.  
I am powerless to practice Christianity because I am curious about how God views sex and marriage?    

I rank this statement right up there with your mindless and arbitrary cop bashing.  :-)

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