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10/14/10 8:33 AM
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CJJScout
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As a universalist, how do you interpret passages like:

Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 8:10-12

Matthew 10:28

My intent is not to debate, just curious. Neither one of us is going to convince the other that we are right, just trying to understand.
10/14/10 2:50 PM
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Grakman
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 Not the rev, but:

Matthew 7:21-23 - Eventually all WILL do the will of the Father, i.e. submit to and follow Christ.
[Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Philippians 2:11 1And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.]

Matthew 8:10-12 - Referring to the Jewish Kingdom (he mentions the patriarchs of the faith, specifically makes a comparison against the faith of Israel)

Matthew 10:28 - Doesn't say that he will destroy, only that he can. Ultimate power. (Subquestion: if you believe in the doctrine of eternal hell, how would you interpret this verse?)
10/15/10 12:56 AM
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reverend john
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I would say I am a loose universal salvationist. Of all of the different ideas about the fate of mankind this seems most inline with Jesus in my opinion.

But I will give you a full explanation for each of those scriptures when I have the time to really give them the attention they deserve

rev
10/15/10 1:06 AM
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Ridgeback
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CJJScout - As a universalist, how do you interpret passages like:

Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 8:10-12

Matthew 10:28

My intent is not to debate, just curious. Neither one of us is going to convince the other that we are right, just trying to understand.

 Can you post the verses in full from the translation you are reading from?  It can make a difference.
10/15/10 10:36 AM
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CJJScout
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I'm reading from the ESV. Don't have time to post them now, but will later if I get the chance.

Probably redundant, but what is a loose universalist?
10/15/10 12:33 PM
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reverend john
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I am not completely sure what I believe but I lean towards univeralism

Rev
10/15/10 4:05 PM
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Ridgeback
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CJJScout - I'm reading from the ESV. Don't have time to post them now, but will later if I get the chance.

Probably redundant, but what is a loose universalist?

 Its a universalist who puts out on the second date.
10/15/10 4:24 PM
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Grakman
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CJJScout - I'm reading from the ESV. Don't have time to post them now, but will later if I get the chance.

Probably redundant, but what is a loose universalist?

 I'm not sure of how you are particularly using the term, but there is a 'universalism' that says all ways are equally valid, all roads lead to God, and that Jesus Christ and salvation are just another way of many. Then there is 'Christian Universalism,' 'the Greater Hope,' 'Universal Reconcilation,' and a few other terms used to mean that through Jesus Christ all mankind, indeed even all creation usually, will eventually be saved / redeemed / made perfect through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the Resurrection. 

Restated, essentially the UR people see Jesus as 'the way, the truth, and the life,' and that 'no man may come to the Father' but through Christ; they just add the caveat that somehow in the end all mankind will do so.  Generic universalists basically believe God is love and all ways are good enough to be reunited with God / go to Heaven / etc.
10/15/10 4:25 PM
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Grakman
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Ridgeback - 
CJJScout - I'm reading from the ESV. Don't have time to post them now, but will later if I get the chance.

Probably redundant, but what is a loose universalist?

 Its a universalist who puts out on the second date.

 Badabing! I was going to make some kind of similar joke but couldn't come up with anything witty enough.
10/15/10 4:49 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Most Trinitarian Universalists I have come across very much believe in Judgment and Gehenna.  But they don't believe Judgment and Gehenna represent permanent states.  They also often uphold free will, meaning they believe that eventually all creatures will consent to undergoing a path of repentance that brings them in communion with God when they finally realize their path towards non-existence and selfishness is not working out for them.  Normally people with these views view the statements about "everlasting fire" and "forever and ever" either in terms of the eternality of God's fire (our God is a consuming fire) or the idea that aionios is a word that can mean "age long" or "for ages of ages" rather than "permanent" as it comes across in English interpretations.

I personally hold to the notion that God redeems the whole cosmos, has already begun to make it new, will merge his life (heaven) with the material cosmos, and that all humans who ever lived (even those who were merely conceived and died soon after) will be resurrected into this new reality.  The question of heaven and hell will be a matter of how individuals respond to this reality, since those who are still trapped in their own unredeemed states will have all the material conditions of heaven, but because of their own free will experience it as hell.  My hope is that all these people will eventually repent so that God can truly be "All in All" but I believe love without free will is nonexistent so it will be up to the individual choices of people as they respond to the "persuasion" of Christ.
10/15/10 6:39 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Genesis 6

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.




1 Peter 3:18-20 (New King James Version)

Christ’s Suffering and Ours
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[a] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[b] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.





Does this verse explain that Jesus Preched to people who were sinful and died without salvation after the flood killed them or is this talking about Jesus preaching to the fallen angels?


Genesis 6 (New King James Version)

1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then the LORD[b] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


Jude 1 (New King James Version)


5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
10/15/10 7:32 PM
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Grakman
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boxer, are you trying to say that those verses refute UR?
10/15/10 8:16 PM
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Ridgeback
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 JJB,

I believe the verse about Jesus "preaching to the souls in prison" refers to the "descent into hell" belief common among the early Christians (including the Apostles).  I appears to refer to all the humans who lived.  There is a book called "The Conquest of Hell" that goes into this verse in exquisite detail.  I think it at least serves as an answer for those who claim that people who never hear the gospel are going to hell for being born at the wrong place and wrong time.  
10/16/10 1:05 AM
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reverend john
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I believe that Christ is the central figure of all reconciliation that there is no salvation outside of Him. By loose I mean that I have changed my opinion quite a bit in the last ten years I would be stupid to hold it tightly now. Of all eschatology it makes the most sense to me at the moment.

rev
10/18/10 3:21 PM
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reverend john
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Sorry still hope to get to this
10/19/10 1:53 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Ridgeback -  JJB,

I believe the verse about Jesus "preaching to the souls in prison" refers to the "descent into hell" belief common among the early Christians (including the Apostles).  I appears to refer to all the humans who lived.  There is a book called "The Conquest of Hell" that goes into this verse in exquisite detail.  I think it at least serves as an answer for those who claim that people who never hear the gospel are going to hell for being born at the wrong place and wrong time.  <br type="_moz" />



1 Peter 3:18-20 (New King James Version)

Christ’s Suffering and Ours
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.




Does this Verse not seem to be saying:

A. That Jesus preached to those who died during the flood, aka, mankind before Noah's lineage started?

B. Jesus Went to the dark place where the Fallen Angels were kept in Chains due to them sinning with the women of the world who were around BEFORE the flood destroyed everyone except Noah and his family?




Jude 1 (New King James Version)


5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;



2 Peter 2:4-5 (New King James Version)

Doom of False Teachers


4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;










The Book of Enoch:


3. REBELS AMONGST THE WATCHERS

6.1 And it came to pass, when the sons of men had increased, that in those days there were born to them fair and beautiful daughters.
6.2 And the Angels, the sons of Heaven, saw them and desired them. And they said to one another: "Come, let us choose for ourselves wives, from the children of men, and let us beget, for ourselves, children."
6.3 And Semyaza, who was their leader, said to them:
"I fear that you may not wish this deed to be done and that I alone will pay for this great sin."
6.4 And they all answered him, and said:
"Let us all swear an oath, and bind one-another with curses, so not to alter this plan, but to carry out this plan effectively."
6.5 Then they all swore together and all bound one another with curses to it.
6.6 And they were, in all, two hundred and they came down on Ardis, which is the summit of Mount Hermon. And they called the mountain Hermon because on it they swore and bound one another with curses.
6.7 And these are the names of their leaders:
Semyaza, who was their leader, Urakiba, Ramiel, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Daniel, Ezeqiel, Baraqiel, Asael, Armaros, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsiel, Satael, Turiel, Yomiel, Araziel.
6.8 These are the leaders of the two hundred Angels and of all the others with them.
7.1 And they took wives for themselves and everyone chose for himself one each. And they began to go into them and were promiscuous with them. And they taught them charms and spells, and they showed them the cutting of roots and trees.
7.2 And they became pregnant and bore large giants. And their height was three thousand cubits.
7.3 These devoured all the toil of men; until men were unable to sustain them.
7.4 And the giants turned against them in order to devour men.
7.5 And they began to sin against birds, and against animals, and against reptiles, and against fish, and they devoured one another's flesh, and drank the blood from it.
7.6 Then the Earth complained about the lawless ones.
8.1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and daggers, and shields, and breastplates. And he showed them the things after these, and the art of making them; bracelets, and ornaments, and the art of making up the eyes, and of beautifying the eyelids, and the most precious stones, and all kinds of coloured dyes. And the world was changed.
8.2 And there was great impiety, and much fornication, and they went astray, and all their ways became corrupt.
8.3 Amezarak taught all those who cast spells and cut roots, Armaros the release of spells, and Baraqiel astrologers, and Kokabiel portents, and Tamiel taught astrology, and Asradel taught the path of the Moon.
8.4 And at the destruction of men they cried out; and their voices reached Heaven.
9.1 And then Michael, Gabriel, Suriel and Uriel, looked down from Heaven and saw the mass of blood that was being shed on the earth and all the iniquity that was being done on the earth.
9.2 And they said to one another: "Let the devastated Earth cry out with the sound of their cries, up to the Gate of Heaven.
9.3 And now to you, Oh Holy Ones of Heaven, the souls of men complain, saying: "Bring our complaint before the Most High."
9.4 And they said to their Lord, the King: "Lord of Lords, God of Gods, King of Kings! Your glorious throne endures for all the generations of the world, and blessed and praised!
9.5 You have made everything, and power over everything is yours. And everything is uncovered, and open, in front of you, and you see everything, and there is nothing that can be hidden from you.
9.6 See then what Azazel has done; how he has taught all iniquity on the earth and revealed the eternal secrets that are made in Heaven.
9.7 And Semyaza has made known spells, he to whom you gave authority to rule over those who are with him.
9.8 And they went into the daughters of men together, lay with those women, became unclean, and revealed to them these sins.
9.9 And the women bore giants, and thereby the whole Earth has been filled with blood and iniquity.
9.10 And now behold the souls which have died cry out and complain unto the Gate of Heaven, and their lament has ascended, and they cannot go out in the face of the iniquity which is being committed on the earth.
9.11 And you know everything, before it happens, and you know this, and what concerns each of them. But you say nothing to us. What ought we to do with them, about this?"
10/19/10 1:55 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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<< 1 Peter 3:20 >>

New International Version (©1984)
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
New Living Translation (©2007)
those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

English Standard Version (©2001)
because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

International Standard Version (©2008)
who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah, when God waited patiently while the ark was being built. In it a few, that is, eight persons, were saved by water.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water.

King James Bible
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

American King James Version
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

American Standard Version
that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

Bible in Basic English
Who, in the days of Noah, went against God's orders; but God in his mercy kept back the punishment, while Noah got ready the ark, in which a small number, that is to say eight persons, got salvation through water:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Darby Bible Translation
heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

English Revised Version
which aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

Webster's Bible Translation
Who formerly were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Weymouth New Testament
who in ancient times had been disobedient, while God's longsuffering was patiently waiting in the days of Noah during the building of the Ark, in which a few persons--eight in number--were brought safely through the water.

World English Bible
who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Young's Literal Translation
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
10/19/10 3:24 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Ridgeback -  Most Trinitarian Universalists I have come across very much believe in Judgment and Gehenna.  But they don't believe Judgment and Gehenna represent permanent states.  They also often uphold free will, meaning they believe that eventually all creatures will consent to undergoing a path of repentance that brings them in communion with God when they finally realize their path towards non-existence and selfishness is not working out for them.  Normally people with these views view the statements about "everlasting fire" and "forever and ever" either in terms of the eternality of God's fire (our God is a consuming fire) or the idea that aionios is a word that can mean "age long" or "for ages of ages" rather than "permanent" as it comes across in English interpretations.

I personally hold to the notion that God redeems the whole cosmos, has already begun to make it new, will merge his life (heaven) with the material cosmos, and that all humans who ever lived (even those who were merely conceived and died soon after) will be resurrected into this new reality.  The question of heaven and hell will be a matter of how individuals respond to this reality, since those who are still trapped in their own unredeemed states will have all the material conditions of heaven, but because of their own free will experience it as hell.  My hope is that all these people will eventually repent so that God can truly be "All in All" but I believe love without free will is nonexistent so it will be up to the individual choices of people as they respond to the "persuasion" of Christ.<br type="_moz" />



"I personally hold to the notion that God redeems the whole cosmos, has already begun to make it new, will merge his life (heaven) with the material cosmos, and that all humans who ever lived (even those who were merely conceived and died soon after) will be resurrected into this new reality. The question of heaven and hell will be a matter of how individuals respond to this reality, since those who are still trapped in their own unredeemed states will have all the material conditions of heaven, but because of their own free will experience it as hell. My hope is that all these people will eventually repent so that God can truly be "All in All" but I believe love without free will is nonexistent so it will be up to the individual choices of people as they respond to the "persuasion" of Christ."

That seems to be a very common belief in Orthodoxy right now, I have heard in many times from many places. Where is the first place in history where that idea was recorded for the first time? I am just wondering as every idea has a root.

Was not sure if you can point out a certain father of the church first wrote about this idea.
10/19/10 3:59 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Is this the book?

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conqueror-Hell-Orthodox-Perspective/dp/0881410616/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1287474520&sr=8-5


Christ the Conqueror of Hell: The Descent into Hades from an Orthodox Perspective [Paperback]
Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev (Author)
10/19/10 4:18 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Edited: 10/19/10 4:18 AM
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Matthew 27:51-53 (New King James Version)

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


Zombies?
10/19/10 4:41 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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BTW, I have read "The Gospel of Nicodemus" and it pretty much goes down like you said above:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08072a.htm



Chapter 5 (21).

While Satan and Hades were thus speaking to each other, there was a great voice like thunder, saying: Lift up your gates, O you rulers; and be lifted up, you everlasting gates; and the King of glory shall come in. When Hades heard, he said to Satan: Go forth, if you are able, and withstand him. Satan therefore went forth to the outside. Then Hades says to his demons: Secure well and strongly the gates of brass and the bars of iron, and attend to my bolts, and stand in order, and see to everything; for if he come in here, woe will seize us.

The forefathers having heard this, began all to revile him, saying: O all-devouring and insatiable! Open, that the King of glory may come in. David the prophet says: Do you not know, O blind, that I when living in the world prophesied this saying: Lift up your gates, O you rulers? Hesaias said: I, foreseeing this by the Holy Spirit, wrote: The dead shall rise up, and those in their tombs shall be raised, and those in the earth shall rejoice. And where, O death, is your sting? Where, O Hades, is your victory? Hosea 13:14

There came, then, again a voice saying: Lift up the gates. Hades, hearing the voice the second time, answered as if forsooth he did not know, and says: Who is this King of glory? The angels of the Lord say: The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. And immediately with these words the brazen gates were shattered, and the iron bars broken, and all the dead who had been bound came out of the prisons, and we with them. And the King of glory came in in the form of a man, and all the dark places of Hades were lighted up.

Chapter 6 (22).

Immediately Hades cried out: We have been conquered: woe to us! But who are you, that hast such power and might? And what are you, who comest here without sin who art seen to be small and yet of great power, lowly and exalted, the slave and the master, the soldier and the king, who hast power over the dead and the living? You were nailed on the cross, and placed in the tomb; and now you are free, and hast destroyed all our power. Are you then the Jesus about whom the chief satrap Satan told us, that through cross and death you are to inherit the whole world?

Then the King of glory seized the chief satrap Satan by the head, and delivered him to His angels, and said: With iron chains bind his hands and his feet, and his neck, and his mouth. Then He delivered him to Hades, and said: Take him, and keep him secure till my second appearing.

Chapter 7 (23).

And Hades receiving Satan, said to him: Beelzebul, heir of fire and punishment, enemy of the saints, through what necessity did you bring about that the King of glory should be crucified, so that he should come here and deprive us of our power? Turn and see that not one of the dead has been left in me, but all that you have gained through the tree of knowledge, all have you lost through the tree of the cross: and all your joy has been turned into grief; and wishing to put to death the King of glory, you have put yourself to death. For, since I have received you to keep you safe, by experience shall you learn how many evils I shall do unto you. O arch-devil, the beginning of death, root of sin, end of all evil, what evil did you find in Jesus, that you should compass his destruction? How have you dared to do such evil? How have you busied yourself to bring down such a man into this darkness, through whom you have been deprived of all who have died from eternity?

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