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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Sangaku Jime - pulling head


10/15/10 4:17 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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I was told pulling the head down was illegal during a sangaku jime. But from reading around I've read officially it is legal. But a ref might interpret it as a neck crank.

If I get sangaku jime in a shiai, any tips on how to pull the head down to show the ref it is obviously not a "neck crank" ?

If the ref calls it illegal, is there anything I can do to explain what happen? Aren't there multiple refs per mat that discuss the call?

Any alternative methods I should use to be on the safe side?
I've pulled on my knee, and I've underhooked the opposite arm to create angle and I was told it was fine. But pulling the head feels the most effective.

Thanks!
10/15/10 10:28 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Pulling the head down alerts the ref immediately to a possible neck/spine prohibited attack. Your first question is how to make it work without pulling the head down. One way is scoot away from the opponent, this will make sankaku jime more effective. Their balance is broken also. If you can't scoot away then hook the leg and roll them on their back and go for the arm bar. IN general I would go forthe arm bar. In all my years of judo I rarely have seen sankaku jime from bottom guard. Almost all sankaku jime I have observed is yoko Sankaku jime, usually from turtle attack. I would spend more time learning the other 99.5 % of judo that is allowed.
10/15/10 11:56 AM
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John Turner
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first, get a great angle...i cant overstate the importance of this....the angle is everything really

second...pull your shin...this is way more effective and will tighten it up way more

just my humble opinion

best,
john
10/15/10 10:26 PM
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Hunter V
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what turner said. Google vids on Ryan Hall's triangle setups. He shows that pulling on the shin along with getting the right angle is THE MOST effective way of finishing it.
10/16/10 5:02 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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I understand, you guys are telling me there are enough options to where I don't need the head pulling. It's funny because I just borrowed Ryan Hall's triangle dvds from a friend. There are so many different approaches to it(outside of "regular ways"), I had no idea. I've done bjj for years and Hall's DVD so far is completely different from what I thought I knew.
10/16/10 11:48 AM
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Weinstein
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How many necks have been cranked via pulling on the head in a triangle in the millions of matches that have occurred in NAGA/GQ/IBBJ? I'd wager less than a handful.
10/16/10 9:33 PM
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Hunter V
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still, as long as you are not continuosly yanking up and down on the head, any referee w ANY sense will not hit you with a dq. Just a simple pull and most refs are good enough to know the difference. If they don't, then you know its a ref who SUCKS at newaza.
10/17/10 2:44 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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pulling the head DOWN is not a neck crank... it is not illegal in judo! now, it is true that some refs are dumb and don't know this, but then again some athletes barely know the rules of their own sport.

but, just to be safe, if you are worried about how it will be called by local refs, just pull down your own shin.
10/18/10 11:35 AM
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gbutts
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JoshuaResnick - pulling the head DOWN is not a neck crank... it is not illegal in judo! now, it is true that some refs are dumb and don't know this, but then again some athletes barely know the rules of their own sport.

but, just to be safe, if you are worried about how it will be called by local refs, just pull down your own shin.


LOL. My daqughter also got dq for pulling the head at the jr pan am, luckily some ref knew something about submission and Judo rules. the girl tap and they still restarted the fight even though it was ruled legal. My daughter still won by ippon but what if?
10/18/10 10:40 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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because of the way this is being called on all levels it is just a smarter choice to pull down on your own shin.
10/18/10 10:57 PM
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Hunter V
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agree with Josh. It also shows how the low level of skill some refs have. More need to do ref clinics to learn their stuff on a REGULAR basis instead of the guessing that goes on by some.
10/19/10 9:20 AM
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judoblackbelt
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An example of how misunderstood this rule is, at our recent local tournament a white belt I was coaching had a "cradle pin" one arm around the neck and the other around a leg with both hands locked together and the ref called matte. She conferred with the 2 other refs and they restarted them from this position and the guy got out of the pin and beat my white belt with a pin of his own later in the match. The matte was due to infraction of pulling the neck away from the spine. I have never seen before a restart of a pin position in judo in 18 yrs.
10/19/10 3:09 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Wow, why are there 2 other refs if stuff like that goes through?

I just competed and I saw a few matches where the refs that were seated threw out different calls to the ref standing. It seems like the seated refs have no weight to their decisions unless the standing ref asks. Can't the two other refs step in and discuss the call if they think the main ref messed up?
10/19/10 5:07 PM
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Hunter V
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judoblackbelt - An example of how misunderstood this rule is, at our recent local tournament a white belt I was coaching had a "cradle pin" one arm around the neck and the other around a leg with both hands locked together and the ref called matte. She conferred with the 2 other refs and they restarted them from this position and the guy got out of the pin and beat my white belt with a pin of his own later in the match. The matte was due to infraction of pulling the neck away from the spine. I have never seen before a restart of a pin position in judo in 18 yrs.


once again a case of idiots who have no business refereeing. Sigh.
10/19/10 6:16 PM
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jaykoo
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Saw a ref at the NY Open last weekend miss a pin on mat 2, call matte and when the corner judges called him out on it, he tried to set the players back up in the pin.

Crowd went crazy when he tried this and eventually, it looked like it the players themselves decided to both stand before he realized that Reagan was no longer in the White House.









10/19/10 7:46 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I'm not hear to diss the refs just the rule. Our judo refs are all volunteer and travel at their own expense to help out at local and national level tournaments. It really is an all volunteer "army". Much is appreciated by what they do. Yes it could be better but so could the judo.
11/8/10 6:38 PM
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Punk Dobbs
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You can pull down on the head as hard as you want in a half nelson. Way more pressure gets applied that way than in a triangle.

From what I've seen if you pull down on someone's head while doing a triangle, the other coach and then your competitor's spectators will all start yelling "YOU CAN'T PULL ON THE HEAD! YOU CAN'T PULL ON THE HEAD!". It's a brilliant off mat counter to the triangle choke.
11/8/10 6:42 PM
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Punk Dobbs
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You can also jam the neck up pretty good with the double underhook, grabbing both lapels version of kami shiho gatame. As long as you don't go too crazy and get your chest in on the head pushing action, I've never seen a ref say anything about the angle the neck gets put into there.

Also the version of kuzure kesa when you wrap uke's head opposite the traditional way and then underhook the far arm. As long as you just hold that without pulling up hard on the head, it's a valid hold.
11/30/10 5:33 AM
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Robin Ashe
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Weinstein - How many necks have been cranked via pulling on the head in a triangle in the millions of matches that have occurred in NAGA/GQ/IBBJ? I'd wager less than a handful.


Nobody's going to complain that it's a neck crank, makes them look like a sore loser. I've felt my vertebrae pop quite a few times when someone pulls down on my head. It's probably more common than you think.
11/30/10 7:06 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Robin, I agree, not a good thing to do in judo with the risks of injury (as you menitoned)and getting dq'd per G. Butts comments.
11/30/10 2:37 PM
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Robin Ashe
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Not to mention, pulling down on the head usually only is done by people who are straight on, and also usually results in balling up. If you're balled up and straight in front of them it's easy for them to pick you up, not so big a concern in BJJ because it's illegal to do to start with, but in Judo you're supposed to let go when they pick you up. If you don't and he's unable to keep you up, he can fall due to the weight and you get slammed. If you turn far enough so that you're listening to his knee, you're able to underhook his lage to prevent the pick up, and if you keep your body straight the torque makes you very difficult to pick up, along with the choke being that much tighter.

I could understand not pulling the head being contentious if it were the best way to finish the triangle, but not doing so benefits everyone.
12/1/10 10:23 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Robin- if there is a "pickup" from traingle/guard the ref will immediately call matte - stop by the ref and restart standing, If there is a pickup and drop from triangle/guard it will be a dq whether intentional or accidental.
12/1/10 12:53 PM
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Robin Ashe
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DQ doesn't really undo the damage to the neck from an accidental slam.
12/2/10 7:35 AM
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judoblackbelt
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I agree it is not what I have ever did or witnessed in judo. I have seen high caliber players pick the player up off the mat or drag them out of bounds to get a matte (stoppage and restart standing). This topic is not what real judo is about at all.
12/23/10 3:50 PM
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Your Arsonist
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SANKAKU

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