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10/27/10 8:44 AM
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Duke Roufus
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Sam Sheridan - Great thread, thanks Duke and everyone else, and there are way more qualified people than me talking on here--but hey, this is the UG so I'll jump in.

I wrote this years ago
http://worldismadeoffire.com/2010/03/26/striking-in-mma-an-old-article/

but I totally agree with Duke one a huge point--DEFENSE in striking. It's the hardest thing to teach. In professional boxing, only contenders ever get taught defense. Most guys get trained to be opponents, they learn offense, they murder the mitts, then they go hit the heavy bag for an hour. It's a good way to tell how good the boxing trainer you have is, does he teach and understand defense. Or if he's taking you seriously.

You saw it in the Diego fight--he would switch leads and get hit, very common problem when guys switch their defense isn't as good.

And defense is so critical to MMA and the 4 oz gloves.

My two cents is there is way too much boxing style sparring in MMA training, headgear and 16 oz gloves, and guys get used to mauling each other AND taking shots to give them, which doesn't work with 4 oz gloves. Sure do a little, for timing and for the urgency, but there is a point when it gets counter-productive, from what I've seen.

I've been studying eskrima recently and it's great for striking and defense--you get paranoid about getting touched with the stick or the knife, and the speed tightens you up defensively.

Just my two cents.


Sam,

In reference to Eskrima. I teach fighters it is knife fight:

In practice rubber knives-training gloves, shinguards & possibly head gear.

In a fight real knives-mma gloves, bare shins, knee & elbows.

The Thais are the best at bringing the habits of light sparring. It is easy for them they usually fought since thy are young. I adapted well to this. I started training with my dad & brothers at age 4 & had my first tournament at age 6. In the 90's I did not have a lot training partners in Milwaukee. I fought a lot of my fights only doing pad work. I created a game plan & stuck to it in the fights I did well in.

In the west the dutch method & Boxing works the best since the fighter is learning how to fight. They need to sometimes practicing fights.

I mix elements & methods of training from Muay Thai, Dutch Kickboxing, Cuban Boxing, & even Karate at times.

Sorry to ramble on, I am a self proclaimed FIGHT NERD!
10/27/10 9:01 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Ramble on, that's why we're subscribing!

Interesting that you feel the various striking arts have something to contribute, validating for me.

Tell us more about the Dutch method or point us to a URL where we can read more? I've been seeing video and know the Dutch have a very active martial arts "scene" but didn't know they had a unique method.
10/27/10 9:38 AM
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juszczec
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Duke Roufus - The key to striking is do it just like jiu jitsu. Come to the gym daily & flow spar everyday like rolling & work proper habits while do it.


This statement strikes me as odd. Isn't a flowing while striking something that HAS to happen otherwise you end up forcing the action? IOW if you are dead set on landing a hook and are going to throw it come hell or high water then you'll potentially miss opportunities to throw other, possibly higher percentage strikes?

FWIW I'm a hobbyist, I train strictly for fun and teach to get people to work out with - so I'm no kind of pro fighter and far from an amateur as well.




During training camp pick up the intensity to build game plan & reaction under fire, stamina & endurance, confidence, & mental fortitude!
10/27/10 10:00 AM
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Zedlepln
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Duke Roufus - Sorry to ramble on, I am a self proclaimed FIGHT NERD!
Please don't be sorry for rambling.

Actually, please ramble more! My fight IQ has a long way to go, and this stuff helps tremendously.
10/27/10 10:36 AM
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juszczec
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nobones -

Yeah, I think Duke's point could be summarized by saying that striking for MMA is literally being 'invented' right now.


FWIW, I think alot of the boxing in the UFC broadcast last weekend looked a whole lot like the little bit of boxing footage I've seen from the early 1900s.

Constant pressure forward, short flurries with a premium on big, stunning punches.

One thing that surprised me was how well some of the fighters used the jab.

10/27/10 10:47 AM
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lkfmdc
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Striking in MMA is still pretty primitive but the evolution of the sport has been pretty amazing really in perspective. The early UFC's were only 16 years or so ago and they are unwatchable now, horrible. In 16years we have Anderson Silva, GSP, BJ Penn, Frank Edgar, Shogun, Machida, etc etc etc... well rounded guys with strategy, etc

My personal opinion is that the clinch is the most essential part of the game, and the part of the game that is the most complicated and quickly evolving.

The crude striking contributes to this, because people end up in the clinch so easily/quickly... Anderson Silva is a weird guy but take a look at his footwork and body positioning ideas and you'll see he is on another level standing
10/27/10 10:47 AM
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lkfmdc
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Striking in MMA is still pretty primitive but the evolution of the sport has been pretty amazing really in perspective. The early UFC's were only 16 years or so ago and they are unwatchable now, horrible. In 16years we have Anderson Silva, GSP, BJ Penn, Frank Edgar, Shogun, Machida, etc etc etc... well rounded guys with strategy, etc

My personal opinion is that the clinch is the most essential part of the game, and the part of the game that is the most complicated and quickly evolving.

The crude striking contributes to this, because people end up in the clinch so easily/quickly... Anderson Silva is a weird guy but take a look at his footwork and body positioning ideas and you'll see he is on another level standing
10/27/10 10:48 AM
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lkfmdc
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Striking in MMA is still pretty primitive but the evolution of the sport has been pretty amazing really in perspective. The early UFC's were only 16 years or so ago and they are unwatchable now, horrible. In 16years we have Anderson Silva, GSP, BJ Penn, Frank Edgar, Shogun, Machida, etc etc etc... well rounded guys with strategy, etc

My personal opinion is that the clinch is the most essential part of the game, and the part of the game that is the most complicated and quickly evolving.

The crude striking contributes to this, because people end up in the clinch so easily/quickly... Anderson Silva is a weird guy but take a look at his footwork and body positioning ideas and you'll see he is on another level standing
10/27/10 10:48 AM
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aatard
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I definitely agree with the idea of light or flow sparring. I have been training Muay thai for a little over a year. One of our instructors recently started to have us spar without gear, just hand wraps. The idea was that we would be forced to go lightly and make smarter decisions. Rather that mindlessly throwing leg kicks, we were going to have to be smart and accurate with our strikes. For me, this translated really well to the more intense sparring. I'm much more calm, and make much better decisions. The biggest thing I noticed though was even though the pace of light sparring is slow, my reaction time and ability to recognize and defend attacks has gotten significantly better. I can also say the same is true for my training partners. Phone Post
10/27/10 10:49 AM
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aatard
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I definitely agree with the idea of light or flow sparring. I have been training Muay thai for a little over a year. One of our instructors recently started to have us spar without gear, just hand wraps. The idea was that we would be forced to go lightly and make smarter decisions. Rather that mindlessly throwing leg kicks, we were going to have to be smart and accurate with our strikes. For me, this translated really well to the more intense sparring. I'm much more calm, and make much better decisions. The biggest thing I noticed though was even though the pace of light sparring is slow, my reaction time and ability to recognize and defend attacks has gotten significantly better. I can also say the same is true for my training partners. Phone Post
10/28/10 7:19 AM
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Duke Roufus
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juszczec - 
nobones -

Yeah, I think Duke's point could be summarized by saying that striking for MMA is literally being 'invented' right now.


FWIW, I think alot of the boxing in the UFC broadcast last weekend looked a whole lot like the little bit of boxing footage I've seen from the early 1900s.

Constant pressure forward, short flurries with a premium on big, stunning punches.

One thing that surprised me was how well some of the fighters used the jab.


For sure, it is being created right now. The striking is different. When Urijiah fought Mike Brown the second time his hand got so busted up from throwing power boxing combos. It is hard to punch like a standard boxer with a mma glove on.

I does look like bare knuckle boxing at times. Again, it is different getting hitting with those gloves as well. That is why the jab is used often
10/28/10 9:21 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Vids of bare knuckle boxing? Are there any?
10/28/10 9:25 AM
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juszczec
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Duke Roufus - 
For sure, it is being created right now. The striking is different. When Urijiah fought Mike Brown the second time his hand got so busted up from throwing power boxing combos. It is hard to punch like a standard boxer with a mma glove on.


I've never done alot of boxing, how does an MMAer punch differently than a boxer?

I understand there are less flurries and a premium on powerful shots to set up/leave you less open for takedowns etc - but are you saying the mechanics of punching in MMA is different?


I does look like bare knuckle boxing at times. Again, it is different getting hitting with those gloves as well. That is why the jab is used often


I can understand often, what I was pleasantly surprised by was how well. Its difficult to throw a strong jab and I saw fighters doing it more often than not. IMNSHO, a fighter with a good jab has done some work to make it a good jab so I took it to mean people are training their hands differently.

10/28/10 9:26 AM
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Duke Roufus
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I have some vhs tapes around with some. In late 80's & 90's I collected fight tapes of all genres. I have boxes of VHS tapes in storage. I just to do not have the time to transfer them.

Who is everybody's favorite:

Agressive striker?

Counter Striker?

Kicker?

Puncher?

Knee?

Elbow?

Combos?

Creative striker?
10/28/10 9:29 AM
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Nuetraman
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I'm glad Golden Glory will be putting up a gym in the US so that they can impart the true Standup techniques on MMA fighters and Kickboxers. All Golden Glory or Dutch in general do not use evasions and angles in their technique like most American fighters do but use a lot of proper offensive technique which is much more exciting..
10/28/10 9:52 AM
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drance2624
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Duke Roufus - Anderson
Shogun
BJ
Machida
GSP


Barry
Pettis
Belcher
Koch

To name a few...some more will come to me


Don't forget Frankie Edgar
10/28/10 10:13 AM
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Duke Roufus
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Yes Thumbs up for frankie!
10/28/10 10:38 AM
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LiftStrong
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Duke Roufus - 
Who is everybody's favorite:


I prefer Creative and Counter strikers best personally.  I really enjoy watching the way they use time and space to set up what they want to do.  

I really just enjoy watching anyone who really excels in their style though.  Its always great watching a guys like Crocop and Barry rip people apart with kicks.  Shogun, Wand and Anderson when they are dominating people with the clinch.  GSP and Pettis are both very technically sound, but are so dynamic at the same time.  Fedor and Jon Jones, who are incredibly unorthodox yet brutally effective.  Probably my favorite striker to watch right now is Mark Hominick.  I just love the way he stays in the pocket and keeps pressure on guys without having to wing wild punches.  He always stays in range, uses great movement and really sticks his punches on guys. 
 
10/28/10 3:02 PM
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Duke Roufus
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Good stuff Liftstrong!
10/28/10 4:39 PM
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Ogami Itto
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10/28/10 4:43 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 10/30/10 12:53 AM
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Duke is right and here is the reason.    Most, if not all of the striking being used in MMA is based on Western Boxing.    Modern boxing has rules and employs large gloves.    If you learn the defensive tactics of modern boxing with large gloves, you are basically learning to slip punches using movement and/or relying on the gloves for protection when you cover up.    Well, the small MMA goves offer no protection and just slipping punches is a tricky game that is easy to lose.    If you look at old style bare knuckle boxing, the stances and defenses were very different as they had to deal with no or small gloves, throws, elbows and forearms(depending on the agreed upon rules).     With the small MMA gloves you simply have to parry more and use range more.    Modern MMA seems to operate in two ranges, outside striking range and clinching range.   That is because most guys need space to punch to generate power and they want to hit without getting hit, so they try to land shots from the outside.    Bare knuckle is more like fencing with a short sword and a main gauche(left hand stilleto).     So think of the jab as the sword and the cross as the stilleto.   You have to be able to jab yourself into range to make the opposite hand effective.   Trying to enter without attacking is probably going to get you killed in a swordfight and KOed in fistfight.     The bottom line is that there are more than one range for boxing and your skill in fighting in the different ranges depends on how good you mechanics are.

We are in the process of filming a video on the mechanics of the four basic punches.    Jab, cross, hook and uppercut.    These are the basis for both offense and defense.    And everything else.

If you are in NYC and curious, check out www.estacadanyc.com, Bill is a first rate instructor.    Or wait for the video if you are out of town.

PS-I did not read whole thread, so I apologize if there are any continuity errors.

 
10/28/10 5:20 PM
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wreckker
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 THE JAB is so underused in MMA.

I see guys at UFC level just throw a fast kick but with no jab first..no set up, Even a fast kick is fairly easy to avoid and or block when there is no set up first.

Jabs can be used defensivle even when out of range..oppopnet is lesslikely to set his feet or just come strighjt in if u throw alot of jabs towards him.

Foot movement- also underused alot- i like anthony pettis and farkies movemnt.. too many guys just stand toe to toe..u can attck form more angles and be more effectively defensivle when u use ur feet

STANDING ELBOWS- finally are being used more but still not near enough..these can be fiught eneder and
could be used more against the fence  and in trasition before clinch is made



10/28/10 5:27 PM
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MickColins
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Ogami Itto - Vids of bare knuckle boxing? Are there any?

 If you go on one of the various streaming sites, look up Irish Piker/Gypsy boxing. They box bare-knuckle. Its a different kind of boxing. More body shots, more picking your moments,etc... 
10/29/10 8:41 AM
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Duke Roufus
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Ogami Itto - 



Mark is awesome! I loved his fight against Yves Jaboiun. I go way back with Mark & Coach Shawn Tompkins.
10/29/10 2:23 PM
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Sam Sheridan
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bare-knuckle boxing was one to two punches a minute--a lot of circling, playing with range. You just couldn't go in swinging and slipping. The shit that gets people boo-d today.

IMO, combination punching is more or less a product of boxing rules. Sure, maybe a 2-3 piece combo can happen in a streetfight or MMA but the long 5-8 punch combos that come out staying in the pocket is a pure product of western boxing rules.

Anderson Silva is a wonderful example of some of this stuff--most of his fights he gives the opponent a minute or two, he just watches, backs up, let's you get off--and he starts getting a feel for your range. Then he starts to work.

Now sure, it can be a problem when he mentally gets stuck there for the whole fight, but in the Sonnen fight he came out real aggressive, responding to all the negative shit from Dana and the press, and he GOT CAUGHT. And should have lost that fight, really.

To me, some of the most interesting stuff comes from that division of fight exciting and fighting to win.

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