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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Playing from the blinds.


10/27/10 12:56 AM
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andre
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Definitely my biggest leak. I'm going to be a nit from the blinds in tournaments from now on.

Any good resources for strategy in those positions?
10/27/10 1:32 AM
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VectorWega
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You really don't need a strategy other than not calling raises and not re-raising from the blinds.  That alone would plug your leak.

Now me on the other hand, I'll call with the 9-Duece if the cards are suited.

10/27/10 12:30 PM
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andre
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lol

I watch the online pros play from the blinds and they are super aggressive with any ace and most kings, and I tried to implement that for stealing and restealing and it was disastrous.
10/27/10 4:37 PM
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PoWdA101
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How you play from the blinds depends on the size of the blinds/antes compared to the size of your stack.


If it is 15/30 in the beginning of a tourney and you have $5,000 there is no reason to defend your blind without a real hand. You don't need to risk your $5,000 stack over a $90 raise. If you are at the final table and have a $3,000,000 stack and the blinds + antes are like $300,000 in the pot you are going to be much more inclined to protect your blinds and attack your opponents blinds as $300,000 is 10% of your stack - a significant amount.

In cash games the size of the ante (yes there are games other than hold em that do have antes)determine how you play from the blinds as well. Again, in a high ante game you are more inclined to defend your blind and attack your opponents, in a low ante game you can let a lot more slide.

Saying that you are going to be a nit in tourneys from now on is a blanket statement that will not help your game. You need to look at the relation of your stack to the ante's and make your decision from there.

In a nutshell:

The higher the ante the more you should defend/attack.

The lower the ante the more you can afford to "play like a nit" from the blinds.

Can't play poker in a vacuum, every situation is different.
10/27/10 4:52 PM
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wreckker
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 blinds are the spot to three bet...

Thing is though pros are playing with deeper stacks usually.

in sammler tournies youir stacks are not as deep so it can be harder to pull off.

its better usually to 3 bet late position stealers who are over active.

also having a 15-20bb stackin the antee rounds gives u 3 bet all in type stack to attack last eposition stealers.

A bigger stack or smaller can get u in awkward spots




10/27/10 6:56 PM
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VectorWega
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andre - lol

I watch the online pros play from the blinds and they are super aggressive with any ace and most kings, and I tried to implement that for stealing and restealing and it was disastrous.

 I would think that you would want to base your decision more on the situation than the cards you have.  For instance, if a nit raises you probably don't want to re-raise with AJ.  By contrast, if a player has been stealing the blinds a lot you may be inclined to make a 3-bet with any 2 cards.
10/28/10 3:28 AM
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PR
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I agree with the last 2 posts.
10/28/10 12:36 PM
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andre
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Thanks, guys. I have the general strategy down, but I think I'm getting into tricky situations where I'm not sure how to proceed postflop.

I think my problem is that I'm often playing from one of the blinds with the assumption that the other player in the blind has a weaker hand. Like if I have A-T in the SB and it folds to me, I tend to push the hand even if I raise and get reraised, which often causes me to shove and then even if I'm slightly ahead (and often I'll be behind), my hand still has to hold up.

The approach used and advocated by these online tournament phenoms is super aggressive, especially in the later stages of the tournament, and I think I'm misapplying it. I dont seem to do this when I play live, but online I keep feeling like I need to steal or resteal more often and it just doesnt seem to match my overall style of play.
10/28/10 7:45 PM
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VectorWega
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 In my low stake cash games I tend to just limp from the small blind with AT.  If the other blind checks, I will have the best hand on most flops and thus can bet most flops.  If  high cards come out I will generally take the pot down immediately with a bet.  If an Ace comes then my hand is somewhat concealed.  If the big blind were to raise preflop, I would probably re-raise with AT.  IMO, this seems like a stronger play than just raising anyways. 

Too many of the hands that would call your all-in have AT dominated (or in really bad shape) - AJ, AQ, AK, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.  Also, if there is a flop after a raise/re-raise what do you do if an ace hits?  You are out of position and are quite likely dominated but you won't know until all the chips are in the middle.

Your real problem though is that you don't have much experience raising/re-raising in tournaments like this.  The online tournament phenoms have done that exact play thousands of times.  They know their opponents likely range and know approximately how often their play will work.  You don't have that experience so I recommend playing it cautious and just utilizing this play once in a while (it is a risky play) until you get a better feel for it (and perhaps examine some of these "phenoms" play to get a better feel for what spots this will work best in.
10/28/10 9:56 PM
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wreckker
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VectorWega -  In my low stake cash games I tend to just limp from the small blind with AT.  If the other blind checks, I will have the best hand on most flops and thus can bet most flops.  If  high cards come out I will generally take the pot down immediately with a bet.  If an Ace comes then my hand is somewhat concealed.  If the big blind were to raise preflop, I would probably re-raise with AT.  IMO, this seems like a stronger play than just raising anyways. 

Too many of the hands that would call your all-in have AT dominated (or in really bad shape) - AJ, AQ, AK, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.  Also, if there is a flop after a raise/re-raise what do you do if an ace hits?  You are out of position and are quite likely dominated but you won't know until all the chips are in the middle.

Your real problem though is that you don't have much experience raising/re-raising in tournaments like this.  The online tournament phenoms have done that exact play thousands of times.  They know their opponents likely range and know approximately how often their play will work.  You don't have that experience so I recommend playing it cautious and just utilizing this play once in a while (it is a risky play) until you get a better feel for it (and perhaps examine some of these "phenoms" play to get a better feel for what spots this will work best in.
Your are missing biggest point...
Cash game is totally diffrerent

The amount of chip you have in relation to blinds is usually much higher in cash games so the risk to reward ratio is not near good enough to shove.

Another way to deal with hand like a-10 in small blind is to limp then reraise if big blind is aggressive and his stack is to large to commit all in pre.

I am not a auto shover in small blind with mid strength hands unless my stack is too small or blind has a small or mid size stack .

too many guys shove with 30 BB stacks into a equal stack and thats not a good play usually..

Blinds can be tricky .....your stack size and stage of tourney and poistion of raiser you facing all need to come into play to dtermine your best move... when in doubt play on tight side
10/28/10 10:30 PM
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VectorWega
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wreckker - Your are missing biggest point...
Cash game is totally diffrerent
 My graph at .10/.25 is sicker than Potripper's so why would I ever wanna play a tourney?  I don't have much tourney experience to draw upon, but I have played tons of STTs and I would certainly play the A10 hard in a SNG if blinds were high and I felt I had better than opponents range.  Even with blinds pretty high though you are dominated a lot of the time with A10.

ps you stole the rest of your ideas from my post.
10/29/10 1:02 AM
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wreckker
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VectorWega - 
wreckker - Your are missing biggest point...
Cash game is totally diffrerent
 My graph at .10/.25 is sicker than Potripper's so why would I ever wanna play a tourney?  I don't have much tourney experience to draw upon, but I have played tons of STTs and I would certainly play the A10 hard in a SNG if blinds were high and I felt I had better than opponents range.  Even with blinds pretty high though you are dominated a lot of the time with A10.

ps you stole the rest of your ideas from my post.
 IIread two lines of your post then stopped... 


I come here to steal ideas from guys who play .10  .25.. lol

 you feisty big limit shark you!!

victor dont be too big a douche or ill come follow u to ur teenie weenie micro stake games and ....oh never mind ..the last time i played .10.25 ...i was 7.

Try tournies though full tilt 2$ rush tournies u can win 5000






10/29/10 1:09 AM
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VectorWega
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Edited: 10/29/10 1:11 AM
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wreckker - oh never mind ..the last time i played .10.25 ...i was 7.




 Don't worry..by the time I'm 7, I'll be playing higher stakes than you. 

In regards to tourneys, I am planning to wait until I have a big enough bankroll to play higher buy-in tourneys.  At this point I think 6-max ring games are the most profitable game for me and I'd rather not waste a whole lot of time playing a $2 tourney. 
10/29/10 4:10 AM
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wreckker
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VectorWega - 
wreckker - oh never mind ..the last time i played .10.25 ...i was 7.




 Don't worry..by the time I'm 7, I'll be playing higher stakes than you. 

In regards to tourneys, I am planning to wait until I have a big enough bankroll to play higher buy-in tourneys.  At this point I think 6-max ring games are the most profitable game for me and I'd rather not waste a whole lot of time playing a $2 tourney. 
so u will play .10 .25 but wont play a rush tourney that last three hours for 5k?

Hmm are you just dumb or just a our own poker troll?
22$  double deuce plays 30k on full tilt

I have 6 sunday major final tables for 120k so if u need some tips u little poker weasel ill give u some...







 
10/29/10 9:10 AM
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VectorWega
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wreckker - 
VectorWega - 
wreckker - oh never mind ..the last time i played .10.25 ...i was 7.




 Don't worry..by the time I'm 7, I'll be playing higher stakes than you. 

In regards to tourneys, I am planning to wait until I have a big enough bankroll to play higher buy-in tourneys.  At this point I think 6-max ring games are the most profitable game for me and I'd rather not waste a whole lot of time playing a $2 tourney. 
so u will play .10 .25 but wont play a rush tourney that last three hours for 5k?

Hmm are you just dumb or just a our own poker troll?
22$  double deuce plays 30k on full tilt

I have 6 sunday major final tables for 120k so if u need some tips u little poker weasel ill give u some...
 
Sure, if the NPV of playing the tournament for 3 hrs was 5k, I would certainly play it.  How many people actually cash in it though...10%?  And what do you get for a min cash? $4-$6?  Sorry, I haven't done the math to determine the NPV of playing a tournament like that, but I don't think I need to, to realize that my hourly is greater playing 6-max cash games. 

Aside from that, I'm just looking to grind my way to the top, not just have one fluke variance win that really isn't sustainable.  Also, I don't have a big enough bankroll for a $22 MTT yet.  Variance is way too high.
 
10/29/10 9:11 AM
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VectorWega
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 ps you are just mad because you can't beat .10/.25
10/29/10 11:42 AM
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andre
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Vector,

I'm jealous of the discipline you have. That's seriously awesome.
10/29/10 11:46 AM
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andre
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And the blinds jinx struck again. Arghhh...

My JJ in the SB against the BB's TT. All in before the flop and there is a T on the flop and I lose my stack. lol

I really need to just fold anything I get in the blinds.
10/29/10 1:54 PM
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PoWdA101
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andre - And the blinds jinx struck again. Arghhh...

My JJ in the SB against the BB's TT. All in before the flop and there is a T on the flop and I lose my stack. lol

I really need to just fold anything I get in the blinds.

If you got a guy to put it all-in when he is more than a 4-1 dog then you are doing it right.

Results be damned.

10/29/10 2:59 PM
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andre
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Absolutely. Still hurts, though. :)
10/29/10 4:16 PM
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VectorWega
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andre - And the blinds jinx struck again. Arghhh...

My JJ in the SB against the BB's TT. All in before the flop and there is a T on the flop and I lose my stack. lol

I really need to just fold anything I get in the blinds.

 I don't know why you would put it all in preflop with JJ if you don't even know how to run well.
10/29/10 5:44 PM
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PoWdA101
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VectorWega - 
andre - And the blinds jinx struck again. Arghhh...

My JJ in the SB against the BB's TT. All in before the flop and there is a T on the flop and I lose my stack. lol

I really need to just fold anything I get in the blinds.

 I don't know why you would put it all in preflop with JJ if you don't even know how to run well.
He could have been short stacking which could make his move correct.

Do you have more info on the hand andre?

10/29/10 10:01 PM
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VectorWega
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 ^ agreed.  Andre is a complete donkey and if he continues to play so badly that he loses to underpairs he will go broke i promise.
10/29/10 10:08 PM
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andre
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Lol. I love this forum. ;)

The player to my left was hyper aggressive and had shown down several marginal hands. If jacks were going to be good against anyone in the Bb, it was going to be him.
10/29/10 11:46 PM
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VectorWega
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Here is how you play TT vs JJ preflop.  BTW, this is the first hand I sat down on and I had a sick read:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

UTG ($26.06)
MP ($55.80)
Button ($33.56)
SB ($71.24)
Hero (BB) ($25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10s, 10h
UTG bets $0.75, 2 folds, SB raises to $2.75, Hero raises to $5.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $71.24 (All-In), Hero calls $19.25 (All-In)

Flop: ($50.75) 6s, Qc, 10d (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($50.75) Kh (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($50.75) 2h (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $50.75 | Rake: $2.53

Results:
SB had Js, Jd (one pair, Jacks).
Hero had 10s, 10h (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $48.22
 
My sick read was that I run really well.


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