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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Playing from the blinds.


10/30/10 12:21 AM
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andre
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mnbvcxzchewy - i knew you would be able to justify your read.



I sense disapproval.
10/30/10 12:24 AM
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andre
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So is my all in with jacks unanimously panned?

I don't know how to run good in these situations.
10/30/10 12:33 AM
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VectorWega
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 BTW, I didn't play that hand like I normally would.  I generally don't like putting much money in the middle with 10s.  Also, I normally like to get a read on my table prior to playing a big pot if I can. 

This table had an avg pot size of over $9 which is 3-4 times most of the other tables.  I had seen one hand prior to playing this hand and everyone was putting a lot of money in.  It looked like a lot of donk play and as you can see several players had big stacks including the guy I was in the pot with and I attributed this to the high variance style they were playing.  I figured his range was really wide and may only have one over card or an underpair.  In retrospect, I was probably somewhat right but still think I made a really bad play there.  I personally don't like his insta-shove with Jacks at this level either but it did work out for him here (well, except he didn't run well)
10/30/10 10:37 AM
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PoWdA101
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Edited: 10/30/10 10:39 AM
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<blockquote>andre - So is my all in with jacks unanimously panned?I don't know how to run good in these situations.</blockquote>andre - regardless of what others are posting I need more information to give any input. Mostly, stack sizes. You are saying that the villain was hyper aggressive which is one indicator that it could have been right. There are other indicators that are missing like what was your stack size, what was his, what were the blinds etc... There is a ton of info that goes into making this decision that is missing here. I still don't even know if this was a tourney or not.

I mean for all I know you had 1 BB left in a tourney and your move was a no brainer. That is probably exaggerating but I need more info.
10/30/10 12:55 PM
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VectorWega
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What you don't understand is Andre doesn't need all of that information to make a decision.  If he has 2 jacks, he is getting it all-in regardless.
10/30/10 1:34 PM
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andre
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Vector, why are you still picking on me? Your beginning to hurt my feelings.

PoW, it was a cash game. My opponent and I weresitting on stacks of 200Bbs. It wasn't a shove I'd make against a random player, but he was loose aggressive and I was doing the shoving (rather than calling, obviously). He actually had a better hand than I put him on, but I would have been fine with a race.
11/1/10 6:17 PM
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PoWdA101
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andre - Vector, why are you still picking on me? Your beginning to hurt my feelings.

PoW, it was a cash game. My opponent and I weresitting on stacks of 200Bbs. It wasn't a shove I'd make against a random player, but he was loose aggressive and I was doing the shoving (rather than calling, obviously). He actually had a better hand than I put him on, but I would have been fine with a race.

200bbs is way to deep to be jamming preflop with anything. You stand to either lose the maximum or win the minimum the lions share of the time. The reason for this is that the only time your opponent calls is with aces/kings and the rest of the time you steal the blinds. 200BBs is a very deep stack and therefore is a stack size suited for post flop play. If you are not comfortable playing post flop try a shorter stack which could make a jam in this spot correct - I really don't like the idea of short stacking but that is the only time jams pre-flop should happen.

There is pretty much never a time to jam pre with 200BBs. Like I said earlier, you are either going to lose the maximum or win the minimum most of the time.
11/3/10 12:46 AM
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VectorWega
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 It felt like I was playing against Andre in this hand.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
 
Hero (CO) ($53.37)
Button ($36.21)
SB ($25)
BB ($25)
UTG ($28.57)
MP ($38.64)
 
Preflop: Hero is CO with Ah, As
2 folds, Hero bets $0.80, Button raises to $2.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, Button raises to $36.21 (All-In), Hero calls $30.21
 
Flop: ($72.77) 6c, 8s, 9h (2 players, 1 all-in)
 
Turn: ($72.77) 3s (2 players, 1 all-in)
 
River: ($72.77) 8d (2 players, 1 all-in)
 
Total pot: $72.77 | Rake: $3
 
Results:
Button had Jd, Jc (two pair, Jacks and eights).
Hero had Ah, As (two pair, Aces and eights).
Outcome: Hero won $69.77
 
11/6/10 11:16 PM
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andre
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You guys do realize I was way ahead, right?

If I have a loose aggressive player willing to raise and even shove with marginal hands and I pick up pocket jacks, I'm willing to take my chances. I think in most cases I'm up against two overs, and most of the time I'll get a fold or a call in which I'm way ahead.

I am not claiming that this is the way I would play JJ against everyone, but as I said on Page 1, if they were going to be good against anyone, it would be him. And they were.
11/6/10 11:17 PM
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andre
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But I appreciate the feedback and it has made me think about the hand quite a bit. Perhaps it was the wrong move, but I felt I had, at the very least, a coin flip in which I was slightly ahead.
11/7/10 4:58 AM
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wreckker
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 so ho w deep were u?

11/7/10 11:39 AM
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andre
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Deep. Lol

$200 BB. Sb vs Bb.
11/7/10 2:03 PM
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andre
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I meant 200Bb.
11/7/10 6:29 PM
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wreckker
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u are gonna run into AA KK QQ 1-73 times  that alone makes it bad play...


unless he going to call you with a wide range every time.

when blinds are very deep big pairs go down in value and sneaky hands go up..


11/7/10 8:02 PM
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andre
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wreckker - u are gonna run into AA KK QQ 1-73 times  that alone makes it bad play...


unless he going to call you with a wide range every time.

when blinds are very deep big pairs go down in value and sneaky hands go up..




I'm willing to accept that it's a bad play, but let's discuss a scenario and you tell me if it is, or isnt the correct play.

O.k., if I have pocket tens and I KNOW the other guy has AK, do I want to get it all in preflop, knowing he'll call?

I'm ahead, so as long as I know that he has AK and he'll call, it's a +EV play, no matter how it turns out. Right?

O.k., so if I know he has two overs and he'll call, it is +EV to shove.

Now lets take the guy in question. He has been betting, 3betting, and even shoving, with a very wide range of hands. He has been trying to bully the table, and the one big pot he won was won when he sucked out with 8-5 suited against someone betting to protect an overpair (and the villain calling without the right odds). I think the fact that he CALLED (remember, I'm the one shoving) with pocket tens supports my assertion that he was a wild man.

So against someone like that, the odds I'm up against an overpair when he's reraising me have to be much lower than they would be against someone who makes more standard plays. I'm not saying that the odds he gets an overpair are lower for him, but he'll make big raises and even shoves light more often than others, so as a percentage of the times he shoves or makes a reraise that leads to a shove, I'm up against overpairs much less frequently.

In a SB/BB situation I think it is even more obvious that he'll 3 or 4 bet light because he's only up against one player and he's out of position and any ace usually looks good when its blind against blind.

I'm not trying to defend myself. I accept that it was a bad play because all of you seem to think it was. I'm asking, from a purely mathematical standpoint, if it's possible that it wasnt a bad play against this type of player. (and only against this type of player).

Also, keep in mind that even if I'm up against an overpair 1/73 times, I will win those hands 1/5 times. :)

Can someone do the math?
11/7/10 8:49 PM
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wreckker
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 The things is your play can be profitable because he shoves so wide ..BUT is it the HIGHEST + EV play you can make?

I thinbk someone that over aggro you can trap, check raise , let him take the lead,  value call lighter.

Many ways you can beat this type of player without getting into small edge- big pot situations.

You can lower your variance and make more by letting this type of player bluff too much.

small edge big pot stuff comes into play more againt tougher competition..against bozos I skin them so many different ways and let them hang themselves:}










11/8/10 2:30 AM
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PR
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Once again I agree with wreckker
11/8/10 8:38 AM
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andre
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wreckker -  The things is your play can be profitable because he shoves so wide ..BUT is it the HIGHEST + EV play you can make?

I thinbk someone that over aggro you can trap, check raise , let him take the lead,  value call lighter.

Many ways you can beat this type of player without getting into small edge- big pot situations.

You can lower your variance and make more by letting this type of player bluff too much.

small edge big pot stuff comes into play more againt tougher competition..against bozos I skin them so many different ways and let them hang themselves:}













Great post! I see your point. Thanks! That was something I hadnt considered.
11/8/10 8:39 AM
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andre
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mnbvcxzchewy - you did not KNOW he had TT



This conversation might be above your head, chewy.
11/8/10 9:24 AM
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andre
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Just to be clear, in light of what wrekker posted, I concede that I misplayed the hand. Thanks, guys. :)
11/8/10 4:21 PM
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wreckker
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andre - Just to be clear, in light of what wrekker posted, I concede that I misplayed the hand. Thanks, guys. :)

 Its all about learning:}

Poker is alot like mma or bjj in that you can keep learning...many different levels of skill.

Game keeps on changing

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