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Weapons UnderGround >> Kelly McCann - Kem-'ba-tiv Knife


11/14/10 11:36 PM
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Very good material, imo.


http://www.56.com/u62/v_NDk5NTUwMTE.html
11/20/10 10:26 PM
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PoundforPound
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Interesting that McCann thinks very little of the reverse grip, while someone like Southnarc has an entire system devoted to it.
11/21/10 11:56 AM
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I think what he said about deployment and reach is spot on. Takes enough time to draw your blade under duress, so why complicate things by trying to flip the grip upside down when someone(s) is trying to fuck you up somehow?
11/21/10 2:06 PM
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PoundforPound
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It sounds nice in theory, but Southnarc is a cop who has tested his stuff out in the real world under duress as well.

There can be more than one way to skin a cat (so to speak.)
11/21/10 2:45 PM
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Different strokes for different folks.

11/25/10 12:32 AM
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Skpotamus
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Haven't gotten to watch the link posted yet

I've always been a big believer in how you draw the knife is how you use it. Don't fiddle around with the grip, draw and get to work.

That said, I've found that with my waved enduras and delicas my draw into a pikal (reverse grip edge in) is faster and more reliable than drawing into a filipino or hammer grip. Same for my kalista.

Rolling with my training drones, the pikal grip seems a lot more useful in grappling range than a hammer, saber or filipino grip.

Mcann comes from a military background, their knives tend to be larger than something a LEO or civilian would carry. Reverse grip with a 7-9" blade does take a lot of range away from you. Reverse grip with a 3-4" blade not so much. So while his point about about range (i'm assuming it's the old argument about the loss of range with the reverse grip) has some merit, it's not a big deal with the knives we would probably carry, and there are methods out there (Ray Floro) for using the reverse grip at long range that works incredibly well.
12/13/10 11:58 PM
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tysaw
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PoundforPound, there are more than a couple ways to skin a cat. However, are you at all familar with Kelly's background? It goes FAR beyond a cop's background...no disrespect to police officers or Southnarc. Kelly has legit real world experiences in some of the world's toughest hell holes. He is well respected among special operators, particularly those that do high risk EP work.
12/17/10 7:44 AM
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ArtWanderlei
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Watch live video from GeekWeek on Justin.tv
12/17/10 10:12 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Offensive use of the knife has two attacks - the reverse-grip 'snipe' and the regular grip 'rapier'. For defensive use (if you can even break it down that way) I'd favor the regular grip because the length of the blade keeps the opponent at a distance. Of course, it depends on their skill, what weapon they have and so forth.

I don't think putting the knife in your rear hand (except for a hidden strike) is a good idea.

This is all theoretical, and based on the 'non-existent' knife-fight scenario. 
12/17/10 4:09 PM
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PoundforPound
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tysaw - PoundforPound, there are more than a couple ways to skin a cat. However, are you at all familar with Kelly's background? It goes FAR beyond a cop's background...no disrespect to police officers or Southnarc. Kelly has legit real world experiences in some of the world's toughest hell holes. He is well respected among special operators, particularly those that do high risk EP work.


I'm aware of McCann's background. But even still I would wager that he has used firearms in his line of work much more than he has had to knife fight.

He's not necessarily the end all/be all when it comes to knives.
12/18/10 12:04 AM
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tysaw
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Pound for Pound, I didn't mean to imply he was the be all/end all. Just didn't know if you were aware of his background. Some of his advice is good, some I would not drill at all. Good to see all sides and make personal choices what fits in your skill sets better.

I have personally trained the kni-com curriculum from McCann's former partner, the late Bob Kasper. I liked most of what we covered, some I didn't care for at all. I believe it is almost identical to McCanns methodology.

There were several DEA undercover cops in the group, a few military personnel (mostly marines, and one SEAL Team 2 member), and a couple of NYPD officers in the training group when I attended. A lot of experience and talent in the room at one time. I do like the no nonsense, quit the bullshit attitude that Kasper communicated.He emphasized direct, simple, savage power stabs and aggressive movement/mindset. Also, deploying the blade was particularly drilled a lot. Many of the techniques looked like they had a western fencing base.
12/18/10 3:37 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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tysaw - I do like the no nonsense, quit the bullshit attitude that Kasper communicated.He emphasized direct, simple, savage power stabs and aggressive movement/mindset. Also, deploying the blade was particularly drilled a lot. Many of the techniques looked like they had a western fencing base.

 Not to be argumentative, but why? Power stabs and aggro against what threat? I think "knife-fighting" should have a strong conceptual basis, a strong training theory behind it. Just teaching 'techniques' is BS.

Think about it. You have a knife - against what, or whom are you going to deploy this? A LEO against a perp that has grabbed his gun, maybe - a 'last ditch effort' kind of thing. Or a hunter attacked by a grizzly bear...but otherwise it's useless. 

Why? You can't train it. What are you gonna do 'savagely slash' the air? Or are you going to go buy a bunch of beef carcasses? What will that give you? Footwork? Distancing? Forward pressure? Nope.

Think about a fencing class which teaches saber - how do they do it? Do they teach 'strong savage moves'? No. That won't win you any fencing championships.

HTH
12/20/10 8:01 AM
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Skpotamus
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WidespreadPanic - 
tysaw - I do like the no nonsense, quit the bullshit attitude that Kasper communicated.He emphasized direct, simple, savage power stabs and aggressive movement/mindset. Also, deploying the blade was particularly drilled a lot. Many of the techniques looked like they had a western fencing base.

 Not to be argumentative, but why? Power stabs and aggro against what threat? I think "knife-fighting" should have a strong conceptual basis, a strong training theory behind it. Just teaching 'techniques' is BS.

Think about it. You have a knife - against what, or whom are you going to deploy this? A LEO against a perp that has grabbed his gun, maybe - a 'last ditch effort' kind of thing. Or a hunter attacked by a grizzly bear...but otherwise it's useless. 

Why? You can't train it. What are you gonna do 'savagely slash' the air? Or are you going to go buy a bunch of beef carcasses? What will that give you? Footwork? Distancing? Forward pressure? Nope.

Think about a fencing class which teaches saber - how do they do it? Do they teach 'strong savage moves'? No. That won't win you any fencing championships.

HTH


That's what a lot of southnarcs material is geared towards, someone grabs your gun, you go for the knife, multiple attackers, etc. Most military knife work I've seen is training duels or sentry elimination.

Get a training drone and you can go pretty hard with a partner, make a boffer (floro's training drones) and you can go all out.
12/20/10 11:32 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Skpotamus -
That's what a lot of southnarcs material is geared towards, someone grabs your gun, you go for the knife, multiple attackers, etc. Most military knife work I've seen is training duels or sentry elimination.

Get a training drone and you can go pretty hard with a partner, make a boffer (floro's training drones) and you can go all out.
If you are a soldier or a LEO or prison guard or something then yes there might be some use of this kind of training. But given the whole 'tunnel vision, fine motor control degradation, and surprise attack' thing, IMO, a person who is armed is better off doing the training outlined in 'Die Less Often'.

Otherwise, view all that stuff as 'fun' and not as 'self-defense', because the chances of any civilian needing a complex set of 'gun/knife backup skills' is about 1 in a bazillion. It's a matter of 'spending your training dollar wisely', imo.

I learned all I needed to know about knife fighting and stick fighting in the 80s and 90s and it's stuck with me. I supplemented it with bowie training with Dwight McLemore in the 2000s and integrated it into my BJJ. I learned the 'delivery system' for knife deployment, and now I'm going to get a CCP (just took the class), and use my knife for peeling turnips.

As a friend of mine once said 'The people that scare me are not deterred by pointed sticks (or knives). I carry a firearm'.

Having said that training with knives is fun...

$0.02
12/23/10 3:06 PM
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riddlin
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Anyone that thinks McCanns background is strictly military has no clue.
12/23/10 8:39 PM
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Skpotamus
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Finally got to watch the material all the way through, and as I guessed, it's dualistic in nature. His point about the reverse grip is that he wants to be at range and duel and presupposes that you start at a distance with the guy and not in close. Which is what most military training I've seen is. Since Mccann did start off as a marine corps trainer for years, it's no surprise.

The material isn't bad by any means and as an intro dvd it's pretty good. I do find that southnarcs material is designed better for the FUT, Fouled up Tangle. It's a lot easier to draw to the RGEI from the ground, a clinch, etc. YMMV.

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