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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Bubble question


11/18/10 12:18 PM
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andre
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Last night I was playing in the Turbo Fiddy on Ft and found myself down to about 12 BBs with about 15 people before the bubble. Making the money only pays about $69, so it's like your buy in plus $14...not what I'm shooting for when I enter, and with 12BBs I'll take my chance with any ace in the right position (CO, button, or blinds if everyone else has folded) and certainly any premium hand. But I was totally card dead and I have several big stacks to act after me, so I was getting blinded down to the point where there were only a couple of people left before the bubble and I had only 4BB and I look down at AQ in middle position. I would be first to act, but I can be sure of at least one caller if I shove.

I folded and soon two people were knocked out. By the time I had a hand I could reasonably shove with, I had little more than a BB. I was lucky to have JJ, but I ended up facing AA and I was out, which was fine since the timing worked out for me to cash.

I guess my question is, what is your range when you are at around 10-15BBs and close to the bubble?
11/18/10 12:48 PM
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JHR
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 Funny you mentioned AQ.  Had a similar situation last wednesday night at our league game.

I was 2nd pos with 5 bb left and pick up AQ off and had such a strong gut feeling to fold.  I fold which would normally be a shove, one guy calls with AK vs BB's 99.  Flop give's Quad's the the BB and AK hits nothing.

I felt fortunate to steer clear of the bus there.  Two hands later in my BB I have 99 get it all in with FOUR callers and spike a nine on the flop which hold up. I go from virtually out to back in the game.

I ended up in the money with a 3rd place finish when my flopped two pair didn't hold up to the chip leaders flush draw (shit happens).

So by all accounts, I made the wrong play with AQ but sometimes you just have to listen to your gut. It's amazing how many times your first instinct will be the correct one.



11/18/10 6:27 PM
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wreckker
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andre - Last night I was playing in the Turbo Fiddy on Ft and found myself down to about 12 BBs with about 15 people before the bubble. Making the money only pays about $69, so it's like your buy in plus $14...not what I'm shooting for when I enter, and with 12BBs I'll take my chance with any ace in the right position (CO, button, or blinds if everyone else has folded) and certainly any premium hand. But I was totally card dead and I have several big stacks to act after me, so I was getting blinded down to the point where there were only a couple of people left before the bubble and I had only 4BB and I look down at AQ in middle position. I would be first to act, but I can be sure of at least one caller if I shove.

I folded and soon two people were knocked out. By the time I had a hand I could reasonably shove with, I had little more than a BB. I was lucky to have JJ, but I ended up facing AA and I was out, which was fine since the timing worked out for me to cash.

I guess my question is, what is your range when you are at around 10-15BBs and close to the bubble?

 almost always shove!


like u said u are trying to win not just cash


there are times when there are stacks much shorter than you...and theyare plaqying too tyight u can min raise and steal your way to money waiting for better hand.

Its frustrating to bubble.. but money in tournies is at the top...

pay close attention to how everyone is playing..
11/18/10 7:24 PM
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andre
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wreckker,

Thanks! But let me ask you this...the idea of almost always shoving is one that I get (increased fold equity because of the bubble factor + your hand's odds if you are called + the rapidly increasing nature of the blinds in tournaments + the blinds you stand to collect > the amount you stand to lose if you are called and beaten or if you continue to fold and let the blinds and antes eat away at you).

But if you are certain that you will be called by the big stacks to your left, then that has to reduce your fold equity almost to zero and suddenly your hand strength becomes more important...or do I have that wrong?

I definitely play to win, not to cash, but I felt that I was sure to get a call and I didnt feel like AQ in that situation was worth the risk when I could either pick a better spot or make the cash and freeroll.

But you are probably right...and if so, what is the range you will shove with, and what range would you call with? (I know that a lot of this depends on effective stack sizes and table dynamics, but if you have a general range, it would help.)
11/18/10 9:52 PM
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wreckker
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andre - wreckker,

Thanks! But let me ask you this...the idea of almost always shoving is one that I get (increased fold equity because of the bubble factor + your hand's odds if you are called + the rapidly increasing nature of the blinds in tournaments + the blinds you stand to collect > the amount you stand to lose if you are called and beaten or if you continue to fold and let the blinds and antes eat away at you).

But if you are certain that you will be called by the big stacks to your left, then that has to reduce your fold equity almost to zero and suddenly your hand strength becomes more important...or do I have that wrong?

I definitely play to win, not to cash, but I felt that I was sure to get a call and I didnt feel like AQ in that situation was worth the risk when I could either pick a better spot or make the cash and freeroll.

But you are probably right...and if so, what is the range you will shove with, and what range would you call with? (I know that a lot of this depends on effective stack sizes and table dynamics, but if you have a general range, it would help.)
 
Thats fine if you get called by big stacks to your left..if they are stacking very light then your AQ is going to be ahead a vast majority time...many times dominating too against QJ qk and all the rag ace hands.

AQ is way ahead all calling ranges when you shove with 12bb

Also you do have fold equity even loose callers wont call off with 94 83 etc when you have 12BB you still have some fold equity.

When you let that hand go very soon you drop to no fold equity.

Now if you shove and win you now have at least  26BB and a workable stack..

you can make small raises and accumalte chips against short stacks

you can 3 bet players preflop stealing in position





Just ask your self if you get called and win what shape will you be in?

If you muck what shape will you be in?

There is way too much upside and a real chance to get back in tournamnet to win it by shoving with aq


If you muck the only upside is you have little better chancce to min cash but your chance to win tounrey goes way down.

with 12 bbs you have a lil time and dont need to shove UTG without aj or better

also you can min raise shorter stacks when there is no big stack in between u who are trying to cash

even if u get thrree bet u can throw your hand away and steal have a 9 bb stack to shove all in

12bb is awkward size stack in a way..but if you pay close attention you can get two moves out of the staxck instead of just 1...that can be huge in surivival and accumalating chips.





11/20/10 4:04 AM
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stillmatic
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If you let yourself get down to 4 BB, you might as well have just let yourself get blinded out at that point. Doubling up at this point really does nothing for you in terms of improving your chances of getting deep. It makes more sense to play for the cash at this point.

My question is what hands were you folding when you got short to let yourself get so low? It would be unusual for me not to ship my chips in there at some point when I got down to 12 BB's rather than get blinded out. You would have been better off shoving with any random hand than losing 2/3 of your stack just from getting blinded off.

10 BB is quite a bit different than 15 BB. 10 blinds or less and it's push or fold. Above that, you still have some room to make a normal raise. I would be shoving AJo and pocket 7's or better from any position. KQo, pocket 5's and better from MP. Connected suited cards, any Ace, any pair, QJo and better would be a shove from CO or button. I would also shove any 2 from the SB into the BB if folded around.


11/20/10 11:47 AM
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andre
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Stillmatic, with no exaggeration I had hands like T-3, 7-4, etc... I actually did shove at around 9BBs with AT and was called by only the Bb who had 3Bbs and A9. Of coursebhe hit his 9 and I was down to just a few Bbs.
11/20/10 3:48 PM
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stillmatic
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That makes a lot more sense then, not too many options for you when you get short on chips. Also makes these situations fairly easy to play without screwing up on the positive side.
11/20/10 6:50 PM
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wreckker
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    any 3 bet opportunties with 20bb left?


work on more creative ways to accumalte chips?

check raise boards on flop where bettor is weak..

a78  he leads weak.. . check raise small

4 betting a light 3 bettor with j10 suited when u have fold equity and he is overactive

these moves are earlier in tourney but when they work you can build big stacks and or at least stay way ahead of the blinds






11/20/10 7:06 PM
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andre
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wrekker, I was doing all of those things and was up to 30+BBs, but I got it all in preflop with KK against AQ and the villain spiked an ace. That cut me to 12 Bbs and then went card dead. Thanks.
11/20/10 7:38 PM
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wreckker
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andre - wrekker, I was doing all of those things and was up to 30+BBs, but I got it all in preflop with KK against AQ and the villain spiked an ace. That cut me to 12 Bbs and then went card dead. Thanks.
nothing u can do there..

have you read about tells?

live tournies there is that extra info too

I miss live tournies:}

 
11/24/10 7:36 PM
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kinsey3745
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I've just found poker in the last 11 months. I entered into a company freeroll tournament of about 300 people and came in third. It was my first time actually playing poker. At that point I only watched it on tv. Since then I have been hooked. I am learning something new everyday. But I have actually learned alot this past year from this forum. As a matter of fact, I just used wreckker's advice about stealing chips to build my chip stack.

But the one thing I have noticed is that no matter how many times I read something I always have to go back and reference it. Is that normal, or do you just pick up on it and retain the knowledge?

Sorry, I didnt mean to highjack your post or change the subject. I just learned something from this post and thought I would share it with the group.
11/24/10 10:42 PM
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Spuds Buckley
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kinsey3745 -

But the one thing I have noticed is that no matter how many times I read something I always have to go back and reference it. Is that normal, or do you just pick up on it and retain the knowledge?
.


Some things you will pick up and become second nature, others, yeah, you constantly re-read and learn more and more. I have some books I constantly reread and allways seem to pick up something new. My favorite is Professional No Limit Hold em vol 1

Ask PR, he always references Theory of Poker and how tattered his is, I bet he still picks up some gems when he goes back over it even though he probably has it practically memorized by now
11/30/10 3:09 PM
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JHR
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 Found this gem today..



:)


11/30/10 3:16 PM
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andre
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Im in that pic, but I'm not sure f Im on the right or the left.
11/30/10 3:19 PM
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wreckker
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 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Switch to frappacino's and stop working rolling with men!

You will achieve bababooey


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