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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> STOP CHANGING YOUR STANCE


11/22/10 6:55 PM
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gbutts
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A couple of weeks ago I was watching my daughters at there boxing class. I got really corcern because they were standing with their left foot forward instead of their right foot forward. After class I asked them why and they told me the instructor told that their power hand should be back.

Well he is wrong because when they grapple, do judo and mma their right foot is always forward. My daughters like most judo people stand with their right foot forward. They are right hand southpaws.

It amazing how many right stance judo people change their stance when their striking. This is why these people never become good strikers. It's simple don't change years footwork. Their gripping which should be the basis for their boxing is from a right foot forward stance.

If you are doing mma and you switch to a left foot forward stance you will natural switch back to the right stance when doing throws. This is a waste of time and positioning.
Throwing someone in mma or no-gi grappling should come natural and swift.

If you look at Karo, Manny and other mma judo people they are always off balance when they striking because they are out of their natural stance. Their hands are slow and they throw wild punches and they miss alot opporunities to use their throws.

I remember a couple months ago when my daughter was competing at no-gi tournament and she was standing with her left foot forward and attempting throws. Well she giving was up back but when she had her right foot forward her throws always worked.

My point is don't change something that comes natural just because it is the norm in another sport.

BTW, Kathy Long is a right handed southpaw and she is one of the greatest female striker.
11/22/10 8:47 PM
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quijote
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 I'm not sure that I agree, 100%.

The question remains, can your boxing power and speed be as good with your power hand in front? Or do you care?
In order to maximize power and speed, most of the time, your power hand should be back. This is how most people are.

I think a person runs the risk of becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, instead of a Judo player with Boxing.
Another solution is, either learn to box backwards, or complete throws and sweeps from both options.
11/23/10 4:04 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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the human body is only capable of so much. to grapple one side and box another is simply stupid. the neuromuscular system is not capable to doing that easily. the hardest thing to have your body learn is advanced movement and explosive power bursts.

this, anybody with any sense in their head would agree with GB on this one, easily.

this way your body is streamlined and you are most effective from one's prefered stance. to have 2 different stances literally means you are a jack of all trades and master of none. given time the hands and snap and punch/kick power will develop from the streamlines "judo righty" stance.

in the immediate short term the girls, or anybody, might feel slightly more comfy with a switch stance for boxing, but the long-term damage is just too obvious to ignore.
11/23/10 8:18 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Josh, I will have to respectfully disagree. I have boxed and done judo for years, and have actually enjoyed the challenge of developing an ambidextrous approach to both arts. For example, if I fight left foot forward in judo, my "wrestling style throws" are usually much faster, and my ashi waza is stronger. In boxing, this stance leads to a harder straight right, more "power punching".

On the other hand, if I switch into a "southpaw" stance for both, in judo I find my goshi waza is stronger, along with my sutemi waza. Meanwhile, in boxing, the lead right hand tends to be much faster, and my left cross is much easier followed with a right hook to the head or body. Also, as a southpaw I tend to "stick and move" a lot more, while in a "normal" stance I like to slug it out (both boxing and judo style).

I've found that I use the different stances in response to how I match up with an opponent. For example, if my opponent is much taller, and "wrestling style" is allowed under the rules, I tend to favor a left foot forward stance, to take advantage of the easier attacks on the long legs of my opponent. However, a wider, blockier opponent I might switch to southpaw, get them to chase me, and then use the distance I can create with my right hand to get them into an unfavorable position.

Now, will this dual road idea lead to me being an international level competitor? Of course not, but then again since I started judo at 21 and boxing at 17, I doubt I could have gotten to Olympic/professional level in either before I got "over the hill" anyway.

But, for the average person, it is possible to be a "stance switcher" and still have reasonable amounts of skill in either stance. The key is identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each stance, and capitalizing on those strengths.
11/23/10 8:52 PM
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cdueck
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Talk to there boxing coach and see what he says. If he teaches them proper mechanics they should be able to generate enough power with there weak(right) hand back. I am a south paw and one of my first boxing coaches wanted to switch me so I would have a stronger left hook. He also said that my right hand would have enough power once I learned to punch properly.
11/24/10 10:39 AM
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judoblackbelt
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I started judo with the right foot forward and somehow switched to left foot forward and is my predominant stance. I practice both ways in uchikomi judo and Randori practice. I can grip and attack from left foot forward and also defend better. But there are some throws (Osoto gari) I am better at right foot forward. When I try to grip fight right foot forward I don't know what I am doing and feel lost. So I do believe there is a "natural" stance for each individual and you just have to find it. Just my 2 cents worth.
11/24/10 12:21 PM
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judoblackbelt - I started judo with the right foot forward and somehow switched to left foot forward and is my predominant stance. I practice both ways in uchikomi judo and Randori practice. I can grip and attack from left foot forward and also defend better. But there are some throws (Osoto gari) I am better at right foot forward. When I try to grip fight right foot forward I don't know what I am doing and feel lost. So I do believe there is a "natural" stance for each individual and you just have to find it. Just my 2 cents worth.

 Good point. A "natural stance" for each person can be different for different throws and sweeps just as well for boxing and wrestling. I box with my left foot forward, play judo with my and wrestle best with my right foot forward. What I key on, which I think is important, what are my best throws and sweeps for when I am boxing, and how I can transition my boxing to a powerful judo style clinch?
I think, for most people, it may be more beneficial to find out a transition between boxing and judo than to adapt your stance to one or the either and have performance suffer.

"the hardest thing to have your body learn is advanced movement and explosive power bursts"
Josh I think this is the reason why it's not better to keep the same stance. If my right cross is more explosive than my left cross, why would I change that? It's not stupid, its logic.
11/24/10 1:14 PM
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gbutts
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quijote -  I'm not sure that I agree, 100%.

The question remains, can your boxing power and speed be as good with your power hand in front? Or do you care?
In order to maximize power and speed, most of the time, your power hand should be back. This is how most people are.

I think a person runs the risk of becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, instead of a Judo player with Boxing.
Another solution is, either learn to box backwards, or complete throws and sweeps from both options.


Your, most powerful hand is always the fast. I'm a right hand southpaw that means my right jab is my most powerful and fast punch. I don't understand what you mean by becoming a judo player in a boxing world. Again, you should not switch your stance because most people fight with their left foot front especially if you are mma fighter with a judo background. Btw, if you change your stance to complete a throw then the stance is not natural. No boxer, judo polayer, wrestler, grappler is equally good on both sides. Grip fighting in judo is very similar to punching in boxing. I would not a boxer who does judo to switch stance because most people stand with their right foot foward ; I would just teach him how to do throw from a left stances. Most boxer hate fighting southpaws because the southpaw punches are comming from weird angles. I would suggest you look at Karo and Manny's fights they switch stances (strike with their left foot in front but throw with their right foot in front) and their boxing is lacking balance and speed. They miss alot of chances to throw people. The oppunity to throw someone occures in a split second you dont have time to switch to your stance. My point is you don't change what comes natural to someone just to put their power hand back so they can have a powerful cross or hook. Anyway, I think it is better to hit someone with a hard/fast jab first and then setup other punches. I agree with what josh has posted but I wont call your opinions stupid.
11/24/10 1:20 PM
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gbutts
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cdueck - Talk to there boxing coach and see what he says. If he teaches them proper mechanics they should be able to generate enough power with there weak(right) hand back. I am a south paw and one of my first boxing coaches wanted to switch me so I would have a stronger left hook. He also said that my right hand would have enough power once I learned to punch properly.


Their Muy thai coach and I talk to their boxing instructor and he agree with his that they should stay in a right foot stance. The boxing instructor did not know about their judo stance.
11/24/10 1:48 PM
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gbutts -

Your, most powerful hand is always the fast. I'm a right hand southpaw that means my right jab is my most powerful and fast punch. I don't understand what you mean by becoming a judo player in a boxing world. Again, you should not switch your stance because most people fight with their left foot front especially if you are mma fighter with a judo background.

 What I mean when I say becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, is if I enter a fight in my Judo stance but can't box well enough to throw hands, than I am not boxing, I am doing Judo against a boxer. I don't want to lower my boxing ability just to be able to throw someone when I may not be the range to throw.

I can't relate to you saying that your right jab is your most powerful and fastest punch.
For me, and most pro boxers that I work with, there jab is the fastest punch, and the cross is there most powerful punch. Only referring about straights of course.
11/24/10 5:14 PM
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gbutts
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gbutts -

Your, most powerful hand is always the fast. I'm a right hand southpaw that means my right jab is my most powerful and fast punch. I don't understand what you mean by becoming a judo player in a boxing world. Again, you should not switch your stance because most people fight with their left foot front especially if you are mma fighter with a judo background.

 What I mean when I say becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, is if I enter a fight in my Judo stance but can't box well enough to throw hands, than I am not boxing, I am doing Judo against a boxer. I don't want to lower my boxing ability just to be able to throw someone when I may not be the range to throw.

I can't relate to you saying that your right jab is your most powerful and fastest punch.
For me, and most pro boxers that I work with, there jab is the fastest punch, and the cross is there most powerful punch. Only referring about straights of course.

My right jab like most right handed southpaws is the most powerful because i'm right handed. My power is generated from the speed of my right jab. your boxing and judo stance should be the same if you are and a traditoinal judo player (stand upright and not bent over). Again, kathy long is a good example and pernell whittaker is another example of right handed southpaws with powerful right jabs
11/25/10 2:53 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS... here's the thing.. you said, "and have actually enjoyed the challenge of developing an ambidextrous approach to both arts."

in other words, you are experimenting with it. you are playing around. you are enjoying the learning process.... you and i are not talking about the same thing. not even close.

i am talking about the way the neuromuscular system is trained to be most effective and you are talking about what you like to do. two totally different things.

hell, i like to use uchimata... i suck at it, but i like to play around with it. i can play around with be right handed, left handed, Okano-style neutral, whatever... none of that means i am training my neuromuscular system to the 100% output.
11/25/10 5:23 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Josh, I have to again disagree in that my "experiment" if it can be classified in that way, is completed. I HAVE developed effective abilities from both stances. Are they the same throws and punching combinations? No. But, they don't have to be.

To say that someone who switches stances is not training their system to 100% output is, I think, rather shortsighted. Many superior athletes train themselves ambidextrously. Roy Jones Jr. was known in his prime to switch from southpaw to righty in the middle of a round, and could knock out people with either hand. Almost all effective NBA basketball players can dribble with either hand, and many of the most effective "drivers" like Magic Johnson or Jordan could drive, pass, and layup with either hand. Hell, Jordan would sometimes for fun shoot his freethrows left handed.

The same applies to many other sports. Most NFL running backs can carry the ball in either hand, and are in fact trained to run with the ball in their "outside hand" to prevent turning the ball over on fumbles. They also can cut and accelerate on either foot. Are they not training their systems to 100% output?

To say that a judo player/ combat athlete can only learn to fight from one stance disregards the abilities of the human body, and in fact, IMO, leads to a fighter who has gaping flaws in their skill set that eventually an opponent can take advantage of.

What happens when you face an opponent whose favorite attacks fall straight into your trained stance and techniques? Are you just going to concede the fight before it even begins?

Or what if you're injured? Let's say that your right ankle gets jacked up right before a match, or your knee on that side. Are you still going to present it as your lead leg, just asking for your opponent to attack it without mercy? Or what if the injured leg is your "posting" leg, which for most right handed players would also be the right leg as well? Are you just gonna flop and drop, or pray for a chance at a sutemi waza?

The reason I ask these, Josh, is because these are all situations I have seen happen, or situations I've been in. I had to switch stances in the middle of a match once or twice, because of a turned ankle, or an opponent whose style was tailor made to attack my right handed setups. I've seen it happen to others as well, and those who are unchanging in their stances usually ended up having their asses handed to them because of it.

This is the reason why, in the Book of Five Rings, Musashi advises (I believe it is in the Fire Book, but my copy is not with my right this second), to chase your opponent to where walls and obstructions would be on the opponent's right side. Most swordsmen then were unchangingly right handed, and by limiting the range of motion and planes of effective motion on the right side, you can effectively negate an opponent's attack.

Meanwhile, Musashi himself didn't suffer from this limitation. By advocating the use of two hands, and attacking from both hands and basically being able to change, Musashi was saying "if the right one don't get you, the left one will."

Now, again, I'm not talking about those who wish to become Olympic level sports players. You wanna be the next Tedy Riner? Okay, fine, do 10,000 hours of over the back uchimatas, or whatever throw you want. But, look what happened to Riner at the World's this year. His attack and stance were negated (although, I didn't like his opponent's style either of flop and turtle). Riner was either unwilling or unable to change his stance and tactics, leaving him with only the hope of a judges penalty to give him his win. And his actions afterwards were not exactly in the best spirit of judo either. How can we say that Riner's performance (never mind his tantrum) were in ANY way in conjunction with Kano's idea of blending and taking advantage of what the opponent gives you?

But Josh, I'm not a sports judo player. Never have been. Never wanted to be. I spent my "sporting days" sacrificing my body and brain cells on the altar of the gods of football, and I still pay the price. If I wanted to play a "sport" again, judo would have been perhaps the LAST choice I would have made. I would have become a powerlifter, perhaps. More cheeseburgers, less heavy breathing.

I came into judo in the goal of becoming a martial artist. A COMPLETE martial artist. It's why I've studied multiple arts, including BJJ, boxing, JKD, judo, and even weaponed arts like archery. It's why I enjoyed learning how to shoot a gun accurately, to a reasonable degree (I'm no sniper, but I'm a decent shot) with both pistols and rifles of multiple makes and calibers. It's why later, when I feel my unarmed skills have reached a level I am happier with (with the goal of never stop learning), I plan on studying another weaponed art, whether it be kenjutsu, naginata, or perhaps a Western weapon like fencing or the quarterstaff.

The fact is, your idea of training your neuromuscular system to 100% output is nothing more than locking yourself into a rut. Your rut may be very strong, and your rut may be better than my rut, but I prefer having multiple ruts, or in fact having no rut at all.

11/25/10 5:25 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Edit: Sorry, for most right handed throws, the left leg is the posting leg, and the right leg is the sweeping leg. But, the same idea still applies. What if the posting leg is injured?
11/25/10 6:57 AM
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judoblackbelt
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When I started judo (1993) there was a very tough BB (190 lbs) who fought left foot forward and he told me he was natural right foot forward but injured his posting leg (left) in National level competition and switched. This lefty was the best pound for pound all around fighter in our club. I remember one time a weight lifter from Power House gym started judo ( 230 lbs) big/strong. He tried to mix it up with him on the ground and got choke out. Never returned. I was amazed.
11/25/10 8:13 AM
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BJJWorkouts
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How do your daughters throw a baseball or other object? If they throw with their left foot forward then they should box with their left foot forward.

Punching and throwing(not in judo context) share the same generalized motor program. They are in the same class of movements in regards to their CNS. Judo is completely different.
11/25/10 10:12 PM
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Jacket Wrestler
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gbutts - 
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gbutts -

Your, most powerful hand is always the fast. I'm a right hand southpaw that means my right jab is my most powerful and fast punch. I don't understand what you mean by becoming a judo player in a boxing world. Again, you should not switch your stance because most people fight with their left foot front especially if you are mma fighter with a judo background.

 What I mean when I say becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, is if I enter a fight in my Judo stance but can't box well enough to throw hands, than I am not boxing, I am doing Judo against a boxer. I don't want to lower my boxing ability just to be able to throw someone when I may not be the range to throw.

I can't relate to you saying that your right jab is your most powerful and fastest punch.
For me, and most pro boxers that I work with, there jab is the fastest punch, and the cross is there most powerful punch. Only referring about straights of course.

My right jab like most right handed southpaws is the most powerful because i'm right handed. My power is generated from the speed of my right jab. your boxing and judo stance should be the same if you are and a traditoinal judo player (stand upright and not bent over). Again, kathy long is a good example and pernell whittaker is another example of right handed southpaws with powerful right jabs


I've done both kickboxing and judo and find no problem transitioning in the clinch. I agree that as a right handed fighter you would have an awesome right jab. But your power hand would be nearly useless. Which is the opposite of what you want, and is why right handed fighters have their left foot forward. If your daughter started boxing first she would have a left handed judo stance by your logic, so why not teach that her judo is wrong? If you keep the same stance, either striking or grappling will suffer. You have to pick one.
11/25/10 10:49 PM
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gbutts
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gbutts - 
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gbutts -

Your, most powerful hand is always the fast. I'm a right hand southpaw that means my right jab is my most powerful and fast punch. I don't understand what you mean by becoming a judo player in a boxing world. Again, you should not switch your stance because most people fight with their left foot front especially if you are mma fighter with a judo background.

 What I mean when I say becoming a Judo player in a boxers world, is if I enter a fight in my Judo stance but can't box well enough to throw hands, than I am not boxing, I am doing Judo against a boxer. I don't want to lower my boxing ability just to be able to throw someone when I may not be the range to throw.

I can't relate to you saying that your right jab is your most powerful and fastest punch.
For me, and most pro boxers that I work with, there jab is the fastest punch, and the cross is there most powerful punch. Only referring about straights of course.

My right jab like most right handed southpaws is the most powerful because i'm right handed. My power is generated from the speed of my right jab. your boxing and judo stance should be the same if you are and a traditoinal judo player (stand upright and not bent over). Again, kathy long is a good example and pernell whittaker is another example of right handed southpaws with powerful right jabs


I've done both kickboxing and judo and find no problem transitioning in the clinch. I agree that as a right handed fighter you would have an awesome right jab. But your power hand would be nearly useless. Which is the opposite of what you want, and is why right handed fighters have their left foot forward. If your daughter started boxing first she would have a left handed judo stance by your logic, so why not teach that her judo is wrong? If you keep the same stance, either striking or grappling will suffer. You have to pick one.


I did not say anything was wrong with standing with your left foot stance; if my daughter started with that stance I would not change it. So they stand in a right foot foward stance therefore why would I change it? Again, there plently of right handed southpaws so I don't understand why their striking is wrong neither would her judo be wrong because she has a left stance. Again, the point is that you should not change the stance you have use all your life because most people use a different stance. With that said you don't have to pick striking or judo; mma people do both.
11/25/10 11:47 PM
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Jacket Wrestler
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gbutts - 
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I've done both kickboxing and judo and find no problem transitioning in the clinch. I agree that as a right handed fighter you would have an awesome right jab. But your power hand would be nearly useless. Which is the opposite of what you want, and is why right handed fighters have their left foot forward. If your daughter started boxing first she would have a left handed judo stance by your logic, so why not teach that her judo is wrong? If you keep the same stance, either striking or grappling will suffer. You have to pick one.


I did not say anything was wrong with standing with your left foot stance; if my daughter started with that stance I would not change it. So they stand in a right foot foward stance therefore why would I change it? Again, there plently of right handed southpaws so I don't understand why their striking is wrong neither would her judo be wrong because she has a left stance. Again, the point is that you should not change the stance you have use all your life because most people use a different stance. With that said you don't have to pick striking or judo; mma people do both.


Then if she played tennis you would make her stand with her right foot forward and hold the racket in her left hand even if she is right handed because that is her first learned stance? It just doesn't make sense. I constantly show beginners the difference between stances by asking them to do it the other way and they find it incredibly awkward, as do I. It can be learned, but at the same degree of difficulty and frustration as learning to write left handed because the inkpot is on your left. And I didn't say you couldn't do both striking and judo, I said that if you do both in the same stance one will suffer. If you see a wrestler with their right foot forward, they have no interest in striking. As always, exceptions will apply. Bottom line is using the incorrect stance is wrong because it feels weird.
11/26/10 8:14 AM
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BJJWorkouts
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 Which way do they stand when throwing a ball? It's really that simple.
11/26/10 11:00 AM
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 Some very good points are made.

11/26/10 8:57 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS... you answered all of it yourself. i dont get why you are arguing, or debating, the point with me when you already agreed with me-- like it or not..

JORDAN played around with the opposite side. he was not at all a 50-50 guy, he played around because he was so much better than everybody else.

how often do you see Derek Jeter change glove hands? how many batters have been able to hit even .250 both righty and lefty? Yamashita was s awesome, why didnt he ever play right handed?????

the truth is that no matter how much you want to suggest that your switching sides, or that anybody's, isnt impacting your overall development and neuromuscular rote memory, it sure as crap is. it is as simple as that. you cannot argue this point, it is not an argument that hold's water.

i am naturally right handed. i was forced to become a lefty as a teenager due to shoulder surgeries. no matter how much i trained, or for how long, i was never able to develop a true left handed forward throw... i never once in my life threw somebody who i considered to be "good" with a left seio, left uchimata, left tio or any forward throw to the left... WHY? exactly the reasons we are discussing.

you, an everybody else in the world, are free to experiment and play around and switch sides and do as you wish... fine, have at it. but dont pretend that it is helping reach your absolute maximum potential in terms of neuromuscular preceision, speed, power, or anything else.

truth be told, switching sides might work out to be okay for some people and a disaster for others. it will depend 100% on the person's level of athletic talent.. no amount of coaching, no amount of practice, no amount of anything other than one's natural capacities will allow for somebody to be even anywhere near an equal level as both a righty and a lefty (unless that equal level is somewhere around mediocre to maybe proficient).

i am as guilty as anybody in this regard. but at least i am guilty about it fully knowing the truth.
11/26/10 10:12 PM
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^^What your saying is that if a person punchs harder and faster left foot forward and than throws better right foot forward, he should switch to right foot forward because he can't throw sufficient enough left foot forward.
But other people (and myself) are saying that you should punch left foot forward because it is better for boxing and you should throw right foot forward because your Judo will be better. But don't stop there, adaptation should be made for certain throws or sweeps that can quickly be made in the boxing stance, and transitions should be developed to get into the strongest position (right foot forward) for throws.
Unknowlingly you and I agree that a person can't be great at both, but I am only saying that a person shouldn't let their boxing, or Judo, suffer because of it. Boxing range and Judo range can be different, so treat them different. If we were talking about wrestling, I would say stick to the Judo stance.
11/26/10 10:51 PM
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gbutts
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Edited: 11/26/10 10:53 PM
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WOW! I don't why people don't understand if a person stands natural with their right foot forward, has beening judo with their right foot in front for 13 years, and kickboxing with their right front forward for 10 years then they should not change stance for boxing. My daughter will be doing mma amature fights next year and I'm postive that her striking will not suffer because she is a right handed southpaw. AGAIN, kathy Long, Winky Wright, Whitaker and many other champions did not encounter any problems because they were right handed southpaws. Btw, some of you guys need Rhadi's video on grip fighting (wow I never thought I would say that)to understand the similarities between boxing and judo gripping.
11/27/10 1:49 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28020
JoshuaResnick - CS... you answered all of it yourself. i dont get why you are arguing, or debating, the point with me when you already agreed with me-- like it or not..

JORDAN played around with the opposite side. he was not at all a 50-50 guy, he played around because he was so much better than everybody else.

how often do you see Derek Jeter change glove hands? how many batters have been able to hit even .250 both righty and lefty? Yamashita was s awesome, why didnt he ever play right handed?????



Actually, Jordan, Johnson, and many others in the NBA are able to be effectively ambidextrous because its a requirement of the job. Even for your average high school player, the coach stresses that a player driving for a layup should dribble and layup with their outside hand. So, it's not just Jordan.

There are many sports that require a relatively high degree of ambidextrous ability to be successful. As for switch hitting baseball players, there are quite a few (with Mickey Mantle being considered the best of all time. Ironically, while his batting average was better as a righty, he hit more home runs as a lefty).

As for why Yamashita never played righty, it's akin to asking why Ted Williams or Babe Ruth never switch hit. For some players, they can develop such an overwhelming skill set from one side that the need to switch is never needed. For others, the need exists and is taken advantage of. But to say that those who "switch hit" are not being 100% efficient is flat out incorrect.

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