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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> STOP CHANGING YOUR STANCE


11/27/10 2:00 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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gbutts - WOW! I don't why people don't understand if a person stands natural with their right foot forward, has beening judo with their right foot in front for 13 years, and kickboxing with their right front forward for 10 years then they should not change stance for boxing. My daughter will be doing mma amature fights next year and I'm postive that her striking will not suffer because she is a right handed southpaw. AGAIN, kathy Long, Winky Wright, Whitaker and many other champions did not encounter any problems because they were right handed southpaws. Btw, some of you guys need Rhadi's video on grip fighting (wow I never thought I would say that)to understand the similarities between boxing and judo gripping.


The boxing fighters you list (Whitacker, Wright) were not KO punchers. Whitaker was a counterpuncher and defensive fighter, who outpointed his opponents. Of his 40 wins, only 17 were KO's, of which a high percentage were early in his career when he was building his record.

Winky Wright also had less than half of his wins come by KO or TKO, with again most of his KO's and TKO's coming against journeyman fighters at best.

Unfortunately for Long, I cannot find her Kickboxing KO record. If someone has it, it would be appreciated.

So, while fighting as a "righty southpaw" has its place in some styles of fighting, and can be effective, having them learn to switch stances can be good at letting them learn a whole new area of possibility to what they can do.
11/27/10 12:25 PM
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Jacket Wrestler
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gbutts - Btw, some of you guys need Rhadi's video on grip fighting (wow I never thought I would say that)to understand the similarities between boxing and judo gripping.



The problem with Rhadi's left handed stance is that it's ONLY used for gripping. If you watch his matches he doesn't throw left. It's always right seoinage, morotegari, and ground work. To equate that to your daughter's southpaw stance kickboxing, she should only do switch kicks, flying knees, and clinch fight. This may actually produce results, but it leads to the question of if you want to learn striking skills, or a way to beat people that already have superior striking skills as Rhadi did for judo.
12/5/10 4:00 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS... no, it is not flat out wrong to say that switching sides is inefficient. just from the pure definition of "efficient" you can tell that what you asid is wrong.

the questions you should be asking are "does the person NEED to train the other side? does the person have the TALENT to get away with it? what are the RISKS that need to be overcome?"

ill tell you this, in all my years of training and traveling, i rarely, and i mean rarely was thrown by a person who fought both sides regularly. some people had the talent to do it from time to time.... but they were often thrown by those who stayed to one side.

this is a purely individual question that nobody but the player can answer... but as to what is most efficient and capable of building the highest neuromuscular development, it is without a doubt staying to one thing and repeating it a gazillion times.
12/6/10 12:34 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Let me begin that I ABSOLUTELY agree that we must take our neuromuscular limitations into consideration when practicing Judo, kickboxing, or any other sport whether in combination or alone. However, I think that many posters are focusing on rather arbitrary details. The (for a righty) left foot forward in kickboxing and right foot forward in Judo do not work so much on the principle that your right hand is strong, but rather that counterclockwise rotation of the hips is strong. However, this rotation is realized in different ways. For power kicking, right handed players will generally prefer that their left leg supports as the right leg strikes. This resembles right handed players preferences for ashi waza and backward throws in Judo, they will prefer De Ashi Harai/Harai Tsurikomi Ashi/etc. with their left leg supporting and right leg sweeping and Kouchi Gari/Osoto/etc with the same left/supporting right/attacking leg work.

Forward throws in Judo require the right leg is forward so that the first step into the throw is shorter, and thus the hip needs a less severe rotation to get in proper position for the throw. This concept has little utility or equivalent in kickboxing as a step across center with the right foot is only used for attacking spinning back kicks and backfists with the left leg and arm respectively. Again, the principle at work is the natural inclination to rotate the hips counterclockwise. Therefore we would want to give a righty a lot of degrees of this rotation to land power shots for striking but allow it the minimum amount of degrees to enter a forward throw as quickly as possible in Judo.

Striking and Judo occur in different ranges. It is entirely possible to feel comfortable in the free standing range with one foot forward and with the right foot forward while clinched. In fact, I cannot imagine why right handed Judoka would not feel this way, as you want to get your left hand on your opponent's gi first (right vs. right), This requires a left foot forward stance which closely resembles that found in striking: left hand high and ready for jab-like grip fighting, right hand high on the chest defending the lapels. After grips are made the stance can change.
12/6/10 7:32 PM
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LeroyJ
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I think the point is that in 99% of boxing schools, the instructor will put you into a left foot forward traditional stance, and give you the excuse of "when you get good enough, we can think about moving you to a south paw". They do this to keep their boxing classes neat and tidy, and most likely because they don't want to have to double explain everything when teaching.

Judo instructors generally encourage you to practice throws both ways, until you develop a preference. Even after a preference is developed, Judo still wants you to be able to throw both ways.

12/8/10 5:50 PM
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JudoEd
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I think the answer is "whatever the fighter is comfortable with".

My left arm used to stronger than my right, though after some injuries, it is now reversed.

In Judo, I typically grip fight with my right leg forward, and go for the "right handed" grip if it's available, but would also take the left hand grip.

In Muay Thai, I fight from the south paw stance. I think this came from my TKD days from l-o-n-g ago, when my left spin kicks can be counted on for heavy hits. (Not like I can still hit with spinning anything any more.)

Because I am used it, I can throw a cross harder with my left than my right, and a lead hook harder with my right than my left. It's just what one is comfortable with; I don't think there is a hard rule.
1/3/11 12:21 PM
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gbutts
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FlopsyBunny - http://ifaacademy.com/video/the-southpaw-stance-in-boxing-mma/

this guy makes some interesting arguments for going southpaw in mma, not sure how many pros go this route though.

Gut feeling is that if there is a chance you are going to get serious about boxing then orthodox boxing stance is probably the best way to go, I mean it became orthodox for a reason.



He said the same thing I said, strong side forward (best mma for wrestlers and judo players)
1/3/11 1:57 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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I wholly agree with gbutts and Josh. Pick the stance you are most comfortable with and learn how to strike and grapple in that stance.  Later as you've mastered the fundamentals, (years for most) and you'd like to mix things up, then you can work on switching things up.

Standing one way to strike and one way to grapple will lead to poor transitions, and predictability.
1/3/11 11:25 PM
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HoldYerGround
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 I see absolutely no reason why a grappler can't stand one way in the freestanding phase and one way in the clinch.
1/7/11 11:57 AM
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quijote
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 Ok so I finally broke down and starting really do Judo left foot forward like I fight in MMA. It is tough but I am going to do it for a month (atleast) of Judo and a month in wrestling.
I have already noticed that grip fighting is the toughest part of randori now. I am not used to what being out of position feels like and I am still trying to get a good grip when they throw me. I am sure I will get over that, but because of this thread I am going to give this a good honest try.
Do you guys think that a month (twice a week of judo and twice a week of wrestling) is a good enough time period to make a decision?
1/7/11 1:11 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 01/07/11 1:11 PM
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 standing left footed in judo actually makes grip fighting much easier IMHO!! It's no longer a major problem IF they grab your lapel with their left hand, now you just have to have INSIDE control with your left hand. when they let go to adjust/regrip, attack! your right sleeve now plays a hand fighting game to get their elbow.
1/7/11 2:01 PM
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quijote
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Edited: 01/07/11 2:01 PM
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I will look for that, Thank you. 
1/22/11 1:41 AM
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gbutts
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quijote -  Ok so I finally broke down and starting really do Judo left foot forward like I fight in MMA. It is tough but I am going to do it for a month (atleast) of Judo and a month in wrestling.
I have already noticed that grip fighting is the toughest part of randori now. I am not used to what being out of position feels like and I am still trying to get a good grip when they throw me. I am sure I will get over that, but because of this thread I am going to give this a good honest try.
Do you guys think that a month (twice a week of judo and twice a week of wrestling) is a good enough time period to make a decision?


Today this mma fighter who does judo with his right foot in but boxes with left foot in front thank me for advising him to pick a side (left or right foot in front). He chose to do left foot judo because he has been boxing longer than he has been doing judo. He said it that after two months his judo felt more natural in the left foot stance.

Let me know how it works for you.
1/28/11 9:33 AM
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Stronghold
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Why don't you judo guys just practice with your left foot forward for a couple of years? What's the big deal? When I did submission wrestling, it was LF lead but that was at a MMA gym so I guess they had figured the whole deal out before I got there!
1/31/11 5:58 AM
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HoldYerGround
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 Serioiusly, I cannot fathom why Judo players cannot simply switch their stance when a clinch is established.
1/31/11 6:00 AM
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HoldYerGround
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gbutts -

Today this mma fighter who does judo with his right foot in but boxes with left foot in front thank me for advising him to pick a side (left or right foot in front). He chose to do left foot judo because he has been boxing longer than he has been doing judo. He said it that after two months his judo felt more natural in the left foot stance.

 OF COURSE HIS JUDO FELT MORE NATURAL IN A LEFT FOOTED STANCE IF THATS WHAT HE'S USED TO!!!

That doesn't mean it was BETTER for him! Standing on one foot while throwing your opponent 5 feet in the air doesn't feel natural at all but we still work to develop it.
1/31/11 12:50 PM
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gbutts
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HoldYerGround - 
gbutts -

Today this mma fighter who does judo with his right foot in but boxes with left foot in front thank me for advising him to pick a side (left or right foot in front). He chose to do left foot judo because he has been boxing longer than he has been doing judo. He said it that after two months his judo felt more natural in the left foot stance.

 OF COURSE HIS JUDO FELT MORE NATURAL IN A LEFT FOOTED STANCE IF THATS WHAT HE'S USED TO!!!

That doesn't mean it was BETTER for him! Standing on one foot while throwing your opponent 5 feet in the air doesn't feel natural at all but we still work to develop it.


I have already address this issue. Please go back and read my previous posts.
1/31/11 7:32 PM
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SidRon
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FlopsyBunny - 
JoshuaResnick - the human body is only capable of so much. to grapple one side and box another is simply stupid. the neuromuscular system is not capable to doing that easily. the hardest thing to have your body learn is advanced movement and explosive power bursts.

this, anybody with any sense in their head would agree with GB on this one, easily.

this way your body is streamlined and you are most effective from one's prefered stance. to have 2 different stances literally means you are a jack of all trades and master of none.


If you are dividing your time between Judo and boxing then you already made your decision that you are going to be a Jack of all trades and master of none. Actually in a self defence scenario there is probably an advantage in being more of a jack of all trades type fighter, ready to adapt.


I would think that in a self defense situation it would be better to have a small handful of techniques that you can execute quickly and efficiently than to be so so at a bunch of different techniques.
1/31/11 11:39 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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True. The best self defense technique is the classic "Nike-ashi-waza"
2/1/11 10:03 AM
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Stronghold
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Does that mean anything in English? My big gripe against Japanese MA are that you have to learn a lot of their language to train. I'd rather spend that time on the mat.
2/1/11 6:01 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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LOL. Stronghold, just in case you aren't goofing off, it is an amalgamation of Japanese and English, that would mean "Nike Foot Technique"

2/10/11 6:48 AM
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HULC
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I think it's safe to say you don't know more about boxing than your daughters boxing instructor. I come from a boxing background and when i started training grappling i instinctively went into a left foot forward stance, and felt incredibly awkward and unbalanced with a right foot forward stance. So i say let your daughters fight whatever way they are most comfortable with.

And before you talk about what your Judo or MT instructor thinks, i think now would be a good time to point out that Fedor Emelianenko is a right handed Judoka that fights with his left foot forward.
2/10/11 10:51 AM
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gbutts
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HULC - I think it's safe to say you don't know more about boxing than your daughters boxing instructor. I come from a boxing background and when i started training grappling i instinctively went into a left foot forward stance, and felt incredibly awkward and unbalanced with a right foot forward stance. So i say let your daughters fight whatever way they are most comfortable with.

And before you talk about what your Judo or MT instructor thinks, i think now would be a good time to point out that Fedor Emelianenko is a right handed Judoka that fights with his left foot forward.


Ok did you read the my initial post I said don't change your stance because you are cross training. You are saying the same reason I said not to do so (because it is awkward and not natural ). And who cares how fedor stands that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Btw fedor original grappling art is sambo not judo. Most sambo people stand different from judo people their throw come from a wider stance (boxed stance) so it does not really matter what foot is in front. And I'm my daughter judo and sambo instructor and I know them better than anyone. And I have also box for many years although I don't do it now
2/12/11 4:53 AM
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karpo
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gbutts - 
Btw fedor original grappling art is sambo not judo.

No it is not. His very first sport was judo and spend
most of his pre mma career concentrating on judo. His stance and most techniques look like that they are developed judo mat in mind(less friction than wrestling mat).
2/12/11 10:44 AM
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gbutts
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karpo - 
gbutts - 
Btw fedor original grappling art is sambo not judo.

No it is not. His very first sport was judo and spend
most of his pre mma career concentrating on judo. His stance and most techniques look like that they are developed judo mat in mind(less friction than wrestling mat).



Wrong he started judo in his late teens and sambo as a kid. who cares about the friction of a mat . What are you talking about? how does friction affect your stance?

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