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HolyGround >> CHRISTIANS: Would It Still Be God If...?


11/24/10 4:36 PM
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prof
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Edited: 11/24/10 4:38 PM
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Hello my Christian pals.

I've got a question and my reasons aren't to debate, but to explore the deeper notions of "identity."

There have always been some difficult questions attached to the notion of identity - essentially how much can change about an entity, or how much can we be "wrong" about an entity, with it still keeping it's identity.

In other words, take a list of propositions about President Obama. Lets say most of those propositions seem to be true. But one of the propositions, "Obama went to middle school in Florida" isn't true. Do we say "Well, since one of the attributes is untrue, Obama doesn't exist."

Not really, right? We are more likely to say that Obama exists, has all those other "true" properties, but we got one of those beliefs about Obama wrong. The question becomes stickier as we introduce more and more properties attached to Obama that are "wrong." E.g. Obama is an alien from another planet, Obama created the Statue of Liberty, Obama believes the sky is green, etc. At one point it would seem we would say an Obama constructed of enough fallacious properties "doesn't exist." So there has to be some core attributes what we would call "Obama" around which other attributes we can be wrong about, yet as long as he has these core attributes he'd still be identified as "Obama."

I'd like to look at the Christian God with the same questions: What do YOU find to be the core attributes of the Christian God, vs what you could be wrong about? How much could you be wrong about, yet God would still be the Christian God?

Let me see if I can play with some attributes here. Take these attributes:

1. God created the universe.
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..
5. God is the moral authority.
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible.
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true...

EXCEPT:

9. God is immaterial and eternal.

What if those last attributes aren't the case. For instance, a God comes down to us in the form of Jesus, displays his powers, makes sense of the biblical account for us, causes precisely the feelings in your breast that you have gotten in your worship for Jesus. But He explains that one thing people have got wrong about him is they don't know the whole story. That indeed He exists outside our universe, but it turns out God is part of another universe, in which He is quite temporal and material. He nonetheless DOES have the powers to create a universe like ours and did so, and all the stories of the Bible are a true account of this.

The only attribute we got wrong is that God isn't truly Timeless and Immaterial. He points out such concepts of personhood would be incoherent anyway ;-)

So my question is: Would you still accept that this is the God you worship? Surely you accept the fact that Christians hold some contradictory ideas about God, although they tend to be aligned on some core attributes. And that you are quite fallible and may have certain beliefs about God that aren't true. The question is, what are the core attributes that would keep this God the "Christian God" you worship?

Would the God above still be the Christian God?

What attributes could you be wrong about yet still hold a God to be the one you do, or would, worship?

Thanks,

Prof.
11/24/10 4:41 PM
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prof
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BTW, some of these questions arise from a disagreement I have with certain New Atheists about the issue of belief in God.

Prof.
11/24/10 9:57 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Mormons accept this very belief so I guess it doesn't bother them.

I personally would not see that god you describe in the same way since ontologically he would not establish a communion of love as the "ground of being" at the heart of all existence.  I want to find the uncreated God, and know what lies at the heart of his existence.

Yes I take it for granted that we as individuals hold erroneous beliefs about God and that God is, in his essence, unknowable.  But I also believe that he has revealed things to his Church that at least give us some parameters of understanding.  Hence the nature of dogma, which is not the defining of God, but rather the signposts that help to prevent holding erroneous ideas about God.
11/25/10 2:59 PM
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prof
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Thanks Ridgeback. Great reply. I'll get back soon.

Anyone else?

Prof.
11/25/10 3:37 PM
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770mdm
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 6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. 
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true...

EXCEPT:

9. God is immaterial and eternal.

G-d isn't human or human exclusive.  G-d never ever want's to accept human sacrifice.  But G-d is immaterial & eternal.





11/27/10 5:23 PM
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Joe Ray
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prof - 
BTW, some of these questions arise from a disagreement I have with certain New Atheists about the issue of belief in God.

Prof.


I'm just curious. Do you consider yourself a New Atheist?

If not what marks you out from them?
11/28/10 8:01 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 1. God created the universe.(or God was created with the universe)
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.(nope)
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.(nope)
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..(nope)
5. God is the moral authority.(yes)
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. (nope)
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).(nope)
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true.(nope)


Your knowledge of God, His Elect One and of His way, comes off as very limited and superficial at best, you need alot of  truth about God which you seem to lack.

please remember, just because some claim something that they cannot back up, does not make it truth, just as any new age religion who wants to claim to be Christian, does not make them so, unless they teach the truth as accepted by the overseers of Christianity.
11/28/10 8:13 AM
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Ridgeback
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Robert Wynne -  1. God created the universe.(or God was created with the universe)
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.(nope)
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.(nope)
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..(nope)
5. God is the moral authority.(yes)
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. (nope)
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).(nope)
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true.(nope)


Your knowledge of God, His Elect One and of His way, comes off as very limited and superficial at best, you need alot of  truth about God which you seem to lack.

please remember, just because some claim something that they cannot back up, does not make it truth, just as any new age religion who wants to claim to be Christian, does not make them so, unless they teach the truth as accepted by the overseers of Christianity.

 Better put him on the "list" for termination via deity Robert.
11/28/10 8:31 AM
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Robert Wynne
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aw...don't cry
11/28/10 9:12 AM
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Ridgeback
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Robert Wynne - aw...don't cry

 Whose crying?  Obviously a power has long protected me from your curse, but the Prof, being an atheist, will be defenseless.  
11/29/10 8:01 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 what???my curse...you need serious mental help...and i'm still waiting on that pic of you:)
11/29/10 4:19 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Robert Wynne -  1. God created the universe.(or God was created with the universe)
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.(nope)
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.(nope)
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..(nope)
5. God is the moral authority.(yes)
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. (nope)
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).(nope)
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true.(nope)


Your knowledge of God, His Elect One and of His way, comes off as very limited and superficial at best, you need alot of  truth about God which you seem to lack.

please remember, just because some claim something that they cannot back up, does not make it truth, just as any new age religion who wants to claim to be Christian, does not make them so, unless they teach the truth as accepted by the overseers of Christianity.


I don't see where you've demonstrated a "deep" knowledge of God, His Elect One, or His ways either. All you do is post vague, secret squirrel shit about some special knowledge that you're privy to, but never elaborate on when questioned.
11/29/10 7:31 PM
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BigSherm
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 Hi prof
11/30/10 6:35 AM
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Robert Wynne
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inlikeflynn - 
Robert Wynne -  1. God created the universe.(or God was created with the universe)
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.(nope)
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.(nope)
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..(nope)
5. God is the moral authority.(yes)
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. (nope)
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).(nope)
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true.(nope)


Your knowledge of God, His Elect One and of His way, comes off as very limited and superficial at best, you need alot of  truth about God which you seem to lack.

please remember, just because some claim something that they cannot back up, does not make it truth, just as any new age religion who wants to claim to be Christian, does not make them so, unless they teach the truth as accepted by the overseers of Christianity.


I don't see where you've demonstrated a "deep" knowledge of God, His Elect One, or His ways either. All you do is post vague, secret squirrel shit about some special knowledge that you're privy to, but never elaborate on when questioned.

 nope..that's a blatant lie....and my expressing my viewpoint is not secret whatever you called it.
11/30/10 9:23 AM
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Ridgeback
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 Wow, Sherm spotting!
11/30/10 11:10 AM
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inlikeflynn
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Robert Wynne - 
inlikeflynn - 
Robert Wynne -  1. God created the universe.(or God was created with the universe)
2. God created earth, created all life including humans.(nope)
3. God wants a loving relationship with humans.(nope)
4. The Bible essentially depicts the truth concerning human interaction with this God, in particular..(nope)
5. God is the moral authority.(yes)
6. God came in the human form of Jesus, was crucified, died and rose again as reported by the bible. (nope)
7. God wishes us to accept His/Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement for our "sins" against His moral laws and in accepting Jesus' offer we can enter a loving relationship with him that will go on for eternity after we die (feel tree to tweak that to whatever you believe about The Sacrifice).(nope)
8. All the other biblical stuff follows as true.(nope)


Your knowledge of God, His Elect One and of His way, comes off as very limited and superficial at best, you need alot of  truth about God which you seem to lack.

please remember, just because some claim something that they cannot back up, does not make it truth, just as any new age religion who wants to claim to be Christian, does not make them so, unless they teach the truth as accepted by the overseers of Christianity.


I don't see where you've demonstrated a "deep" knowledge of God, His Elect One, or His ways either. All you do is post vague, secret squirrel shit about some special knowledge that you're privy to, but never elaborate on when questioned.

 nope..that's a blatant lie....and my expressing my viewpoint is not secret whatever you called it.


OK, would you mind listing some of the writings/teachings you base your viewpoints on? I've seen you more or less say on here that the New Testament is unreliable and allude to other writings which contain the truth, but I don't recall you naming any of them.
11/30/10 2:03 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 i never said that the new testament was unreliable....i said i question the authoritic nature that people quote the book of acts with, when it contradicts what Jesus said, just a few chapters earlier.

and sure i'll answer any your questions, right after you fill out your profile and post a pic of yourself.

otherwise, your just a keyboard warrior too me, who at many times has smarted off too me and ran your mouth, only to disappear, and avoid the fallacy of your ideas.
11/30/10 2:08 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 Now, take your personal attack on me, some where else, and answer the prof, questions with your viewpoint as i and others have done, and quit hijacking this thread.
11/30/10 3:26 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Robert Wynne -  i never said that the new testament was unreliable....i said i question the authoritic nature that people quote the book of acts with, when it contradicts what Jesus said, just a few chapters earlier.

and sure i'll answer any your questions, right after you fill out your profile and post a pic of yourself.

otherwise, your just a keyboard warrior too me, who at many times has smarted off too me and ran your mouth, only to disappear, and avoid the fallacy of your ideas.


You seemed to be saying quite a bit more than that regarding the NT on the "Love your enemies" thread, as one example.

And no, I'm not going to post a pic of myself. What is your obsession with that? I think I've made like two comments directed at you, to which you didn't respond, so how is that running away?
11/30/10 3:46 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Robert Wynne -  Now, take your personal attack on me, some where else, and answer the prof, questions with your viewpoint as i and others have done, and quit hijacking this thread.


My problem is that you come off kind of condescending as you did here with Prof, and from the content of your posts, I don't think it is warranted. But, that's just my opinion.
You are right about one thing, I did kind of hijack this thread. My apologies Prof.

As for the questions:

1 & 2: Yes in that he is responsible for it, not necessarily in a literal "six day" creation sense.

3. Yes (deal breaker)
4. Yes, but not always in a literal sense.
5. yes
6. yes
7. Honestly, I'm not sure what I think about the atonement
8. too vague

9. Yes (deal breaker)
11/30/10 8:39 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Robert has gone full on homo with that picture business.  
11/30/10 11:16 PM
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the rooster
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Hi Prof
12/1/10 1:48 PM
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Robert Wynne
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Edited: 12/01/10 1:52 PM
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Ridgeback -  Robert has gone full on homo with that picture business.  

 rotfl.....i just want everyone to see the intelligence that is you:)
 
12/1/10 1:49 PM
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Ridgeback
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Robert Wynne - 
Ridgeback -  Robert has gone full on homo with that picture business.  

 rotfl.....i just want everyone to see the intelligence that is you:)  all 330 pounds of it.

 You forgot to add "in order to masturbate to it."
12/1/10 1:53 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 nope... too appreciate it:)

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