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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Like a swift kick in the nuts


11/25/10 7:35 PM
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andre
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PokerStars Game #53274958226: Tournament #335337964, $110+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2010/11/25 19:19:42 ET
Table '335337964 1' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Sbux Warrior (1970 in chips)
Seat 2: HWF81 (1010 in chips)
Seat 4: Monio81 (1600 in chips)
Seat 5: PhanThiThe (3020 in chips)
Seat 6: NegPL (1400 in chips)
Sbux Warrior: posts small blind 10
HWF81: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sbux Warrior [Js Jd]
Monio81: raises 40 to 60
PhanThiThe: calls 60
NegPL: folds
Sbux Warrior: raises 240 to 300
HWF81: folds
Monio81: calls 240
PhanThiThe: folds
*** FLOP *** [As Jc 7d]
Sbux Warrior: checks
Monio81: bets 240
Sbux Warrior: calls 240
*** TURN *** [As Jc 7d] [9c]
Sbux Warrior: checks
Monio81: checks
*** RIVER *** [As Jc 7d 9c] [9s]
Sbux Warrior: bets 580
Monio81: raises 480 to 1060 and is all-in
Sbux Warrior: calls 480
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monio81: shows [9h 9d] (four of a kind, Nines)
Sbux Warrior: shows [Js Jd] (a full house, Jacks full of Nines)
Monio81 collected 3280 from pot
PhanThiThe said, "LOL"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3280 | Rake 0
Board [As Jc 7d 9c 9s]
Seat 1: Sbux Warrior (small blind) showed [Js Jd] and lost with a full house, Jacks full of Nines
Seat 2: HWF81 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Monio81 showed [9h 9d] and won (3280) with four of a kind, Nines
Seat 5: PhanThiThe folded before Flop
Seat 6: NegPL (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
11/26/10 1:51 PM
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JHR
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 LOL @ PhanThiThe twisting the knife... :)

Prick...
11/26/10 7:03 PM
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andre
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I thought so too at first but the subsequent dialogue showed he was just astonished.
11/27/10 1:00 PM
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andre
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Genious,

There werent really any draws for me to worry about. I had position, so I could let him bet into me. I felt I had a strong enough hand that I needed to extract as much value as I could from the situation. If I check raised, the hand would be over unless he had a big ace, but if he had a big ace, I felt he would keep betting anyway.
11/28/10 1:13 PM
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VectorWega
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 Why in the hell would he check the turn?  All of the money should have gone in there.  Didn't matter.
11/28/10 2:57 PM
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andre
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Vector, results notwithstanding, do you like the line I took? The turn was great for me...the river, not so much. lol
11/28/10 4:59 PM
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VectorWega
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 Best possible turn card, worst possible river card.  I just don't get why he checked the turn.  You played it well.
11/29/10 12:16 AM
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andre
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mnbvcxzchewy - he checked the turn because he had a good read on andre. it was the right move. he knew he was still behind.


I'd like to meet you someday. You seem like a pleasant, passive-aggressive person. Must suck to be shy about standing up to people.


Thanks Vector.
11/29/10 12:56 AM
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andre
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I dont think he read me. I think he thought I had a big ace, and possibly even ace-jack, and he thought he could get me totally pot committed when I made a bet on the river after he checked (showing what would look like weakness). We were both slowplaying each other--me after the flop and him after the turn.

But he should have bet, especially if he put me on a big ace. The board was straightening and he could have lost action if I had a big ace and thought he was on a draw.
11/29/10 8:35 AM
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andre
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So you think he put me on a set? lol

Do you play poker? Do you think anyone here agrees with you?
11/29/10 8:38 AM
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andre
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By the way, mnbvcxzchewy, are you a winning player? Take down any tournaments that werent held in your garage?

Just wondering who I'm defending myself (and why) against.
11/29/10 2:06 PM
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stillmatic
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I would usually just bet out the flop. You're out of position in the SB and are giving away free cards playing it this way. You re-raised PF and represented strength, so you should continue to do so on that kind of board. The check looks very suspicious, you either have a monster or possibly something like KK or QQ. If I was your opponent, I would only be paying you off with something like AK or AQ and dumping everything else.

11/29/10 2:56 PM
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andre
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Edited: 11/29/10 2:57 PM
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Still,

I appreciate the feedback, but with a set of jacks on that board, I'm only worried about a few possible hands drawing on me--QQ, AJ, and QT or KQ. All of those hands, if he's holding one of them, are 4 outers at best. The turn straightens the board so I arguably could have taken it down there (not in this case, obviously, I dont think he's folding once he makes a set). On the other hand, I've got a pretty strong, disguised hand, so if he has a big ace or a ends up with two pair, he may read me as weak and try to take it down. If there was a flush draw, or the board was more straightened, I would take it down (or at least charge for every card), but that flop was about as good a flop as one can ask for with a set of jacks, imo.

I might be wrong, though. Anyone else think I should have taken it down on the flop? The fact that I lost doesn't convince me at all that the play was wrong. The only question is whether or not I could have gotten more value by betting the flop (assuming he doesnt make quads).
11/29/10 3:14 PM
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JHR
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 You suck Donkey !

LOL !!!!

/end pokerstars chat.


;)


11/29/10 3:25 PM
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andre
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LOL.

Both the villain and Phan said things like, "sick...", "unbelievable"...

I know this type of thing happens quite often, but it still smarts for a bit. lol
11/29/10 3:55 PM
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wreckker
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 Its fine to take some risk getting outdrawn...

 If you have 99% chance to win 600$ right away ...
 
vs 80% chance to win 3000

U obvious go for bigger score % are not right but concept is obvious

Thing is checking is very fishy...good players will give u less action on later streets many times

Against bad players though its fine to try and let them ctach a piece of board on later streets to get some payoff

I usually lead fairly weak with big hand or weak hand

You will get a call from many hands with a weak lead and possibly a raise from big ace

If you check.. A big ace hand may get suspicious and you cant get his FULL stack because you didnt build a big enough pot without a flop bet.

That is biggest down side to checking the flop IMO


Most cases I lead weak there

11/29/10 4:01 PM
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slam1523
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Edited: 11/29/10 4:04 PM
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if you don't think you can induce a bluff by checking the flop, i guess bet it.

but you did induce a bluff, so i think you win that argument.

i agree though with VectorVega, I don't know how all the money didn't go in on the turn.

i think since he just called your 6x the previous raise pre-flop with 99, then tried to bluff you off your hand on the flop, when the only hands he had a chance of bluffing you off of were KK or QQ, out of a possible range of AA-JJ and AK-AJ, your opponent is an idiot.

edit: wrekker makes a lot of sense.
11/29/10 4:08 PM
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wreckker
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slam1523 - if you don't think you can induce a bluff by checking the flop, i guess bet it.

but you did induce a bluff, so i think you win that argument.

i agree though with VectorVega, I don't know how all the money didn't go in on the turn.

i think since he just called your 6x the previous raise pre-flop with 99, then tried to bluff you off your hand on the flop, when the only hands he had a chance of bluffing you off of were KK or QQ, out of a possible range of AA-JJ and AK-AJ, your opponent is an idiot.

edit: wrekker makes a lot of sense.
guy checked the flop because he put andre on a weak hand with flop check.

he is appearing weak himself to extract a bet from andre om the river or get a payoff with a bet of his own.

His check is not fear of being beat most likely
 
11/29/10 4:49 PM
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stillmatic
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I just don't like to deviate from standard lines most of the time. If you 3-bet PF, you should C-bet in most instances. The check as I pointed out before is playing the hand fairly face up. You either have a monster, pocket pair or nothing. Otherwise, a check on a flop of Ace high looks weird when you have shown so much strength PF. Sometimes, you might get someone that thinks they can run over you, but most players aren't going to really try to bluff you on this kind of board.

Despite some of those hands being 4-outers, there's no reason to give them free cards to get there. Holders of those kinds of hands would more than likely take a free card themselves to try and hit rather than bluff in that spot. Personally, I think you have a better chance of inducing a bluff by betting than you do with checking.








3/18/11 1:18 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 03/18/11 1:49 PM
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3/18/11 1:50 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 03/18/11 2:16 PM
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Here are my thoughts:

Pre-Flop:

Your pre-flop 3-bet indicates you have a big hand.
Either a suited A + high card or a big pair.
The villain calls your 3-bet knowing he is either a huge underdog (to your higher pair) or a small favorite (to your A + high card).

He is hoping to win in a number of ways:
1. If you are holding over-cards, he hopes the flop is all low cards (rainbow)/doesn’t improve your hand which makes his 99 the best hand,
2. if you are holding just a high pair pre-flop (except for AA), he hopes an ace falls on the flop which will scare you from betting and which he can represent to take it down right there,
3. He hopes to flop a set and that you pair one (or both) of your over cards post flop, or,
4. He hopes to flop a set and no over card falls to your high pair (e.g. no A flops if you are holding KK) to kill the betting.

Once ‘PhanThiThe’ folds, the villain has position and will have more information for his reads in every round than you will.


*** FLOP *** [As Jc 7d]

Because you re-raised pre-flop and checked the flop, I am guessing the villain has now put you on having only a high pair and is thinking that you don’t want to keep betting it because you are afraid of the ace.
His thoughts might be that if you had the suited A + high card you would bet it on the flop when your ace paired.

IMO, at this point, he knows his nines are no good, but wants you to fold your high pair by his representing the ace (a good move and is credible since he called your pre-flop 3 bet suggesting he is holding something decent).

However, you don’t fold to him representing the ace. You just smooth call.
The texture of the board combined with your pre-flop 3-bet doesn’t lend itself to him thinking you are on a draw.
I think at this point, he has put you on a monster (ie. the set) and that you are slow playing it (which is of course the case).
Also, you probably wouldn’t have 3-bet with 77 pre-flop.
So it’s either AAA, or JJJ.


*** TURN *** [As Jc 7d] [9c]

He makes his set.
However, has you on a set also (i.e., AAA or JJJ).
So, he knows that, even with his set of 999, he is a huge underdog to you at this point.
You both check (you because you continue to slow play and he because he knows he can’t beat you).


*** RIVER *** [As Jc 7d 9c] [9s]

Not much left to say at this point.
You hold a monster and he holds the nuts.
He knows you aren’t going to fold when he goes all-in especially with your river bet confirming all his reads.



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