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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> When I Am Stuck $, I bluff too often


11/28/10 10:59 PM
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VectorWega
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 Anyone know how to fix this leak?  I go into Mike Matusow blow up mode.

 I had already lost 1/2 a buy in to this player when my 2 pair were counterfeited on the river by a 2nd ace...guy had ace with weak kicker.  Now guy sticks me for another buy in when I flop the nuts and it goes to a 3 way all in:



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

UTG ($42.10)
MP ($25.35)
Hero (Button) ($32.74)
SB ($27.05)
BB ($17.74)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8s, 6d
UTG calls $0.25, MP bets $1.10, Hero calls $1.10, 1 fold, BB calls $0.85, UTG calls $0.85

Flop: ($4.50) 5d, 9h, 7c (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets $3, Hero raises to $6.75, BB calls $6.75, UTG raises to $41 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $24.89 (All-In), BB calls $9.89 (All-In)

Turn: ($87.42) As (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($87.42) Ah (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $87.42 | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had 8s, 6d (straight, nine high).
BB had 10c, Jc (one pair, Aces).
UTG had 9c, 9d (full house, nines over Aces).
Outcome: UTG won $84.42
 

11/28/10 11:03 PM
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VectorWega
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 So a few hands later, I bluff here, trying to rep aces.  I thought it was likely small blind could fold AK or less, and I thought the original raiser had a pair in the 99 range and would have to fold it.  Unfortunately:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

SB ($19.85)
BB ($92.53)
UTG ($28.83)
Hero (MP) ($25.35)
Button ($27.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7d, 4h
UTG bets $0.85, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, SB raises to $4.15, 1 fold, UTG calls $3.30, Hero raises to $25.35 (All-In), SB calls $15.70 (All-In), UTG calls $21.20

Flop: ($70.80) Jh, 3s, 7s (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($70.80) 7c (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($70.80) Ad (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $70.80 | Rake: $3

Results:
SB had Kd, As (two pair, Aces and sevens).
UTG had Kc, Ks (two pair, Kings and sevens).
Hero had 7d, 4h (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: Hero won $67.80
 

11/28/10 11:06 PM
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VectorWega
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 I end up going to another table, and I'm still stuck so I'm still steaming:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Hero (CO) ($25)
Button ($25)
SB ($12.43)
BB ($26.28)
UTG ($64.22)
MP ($27.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Jh, 6c
UTG bets $0.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, Button raises to $3.35, 3 folds, Hero calls $2.60

Flop: ($7.80) 5s, 7c, 10d (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero raises to $21.65 (All-In), Button calls $16.65 (All-In)

Turn: ($51.10) 3s (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($51.10) Jd (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $51.10 | Rake: $2.55

Results:
Button had Ad, Kd (high card, Ace).
Hero had Jh, 6c (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: Hero won $48.55
 

11/28/10 11:08 PM
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VectorWega
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 A few hands later, still steaming.  I call this hand with the full intention of bluffing the flop, but then:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Hero (Button) ($43.77)
SB ($25)
BB ($28.27)
UTG ($30.81)
MP ($62.77)
CO ($26.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3c, 5s
3 folds, Hero bets $0.80, 1 fold, BB raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.70) 3h, 3d, Jh (2 players)
BB bets $4.70, Hero calls $4.70

Turn: ($14.10) 8c (2 players)
BB bets $21.27 (All-In), Hero calls $21.27

River: ($56.64) 4h (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $56.64 | Rake: $2.83

Results:
Hero had 3c, 5s (three of a kind, threes).
BB had Js, Ks (two pair, Jacks and threes).
Outcome: Hero won $53.81
 

11/28/10 11:11 PM
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VectorWega
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 Several hours pass, I go to dinner, come back, and not 10 minutes into the game I get stuck big again:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($50.20)
SB ($23.62)
Hero (BB) ($28.29)
UTG ($39.29)
MP ($25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6h, Ad
3 folds, SB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50) 8c, 6d, Ah (2 players)
SB bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, SB calls $3

Turn: ($10.50) 2s (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $23.04 (All-In), SB calls $18.37 (All-In)

River: ($47.24) Kh (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $47.24 | Rake: $2.36

Results:
SB had Ks, As (two pair, Aces and Kings).
Hero had 6h, Ad (two pair, Aces and sixes).
Outcome: SB won $44.88
 

11/28/10 11:12 PM
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VectorWega
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 So, I try to bluff:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

MP ($50.20)
Button ($43.78)
Hero (SB) ($27.65)
BB ($41.19)
UTG ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qh, Kc
3 folds, Hero calls $0.15, BB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50) 6d, 9s, 5s (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($4.50) 8s (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $4.50, Hero raises to $11.50, BB calls $7

River: ($27.50) Ac (2 players)
Hero bets $13.90 (All-In), BB calls $13.90

Total pot: $55.30 | Rake: $2.76

Results:
Hero had Qh, Kc (high card, Ace).
BB had 7s, 7c (straight, nine high).
Outcome: BB won $52.54
 

11/28/10 11:14 PM
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VectorWega
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 And Bluff...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

MP ($49.25)
CO ($13.70)
Button ($41.38)
Hero (SB) ($34.13)
BB ($56.96)
UTG ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10s, 9c
1 fold, MP bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($2.50) As, 7h, 6d (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, CO bets $1.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25, 1 fold, MP calls $1.25

Turn: ($6.25) 9s (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2

River: ($10.25) 5h (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $5, Hero raises to $16, MP calls $11

Total pot: $42.25 | Rake: $2.11

Results:
Hero had 10s, 9c (one pair, nines).
MP had 7d, 7c (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: MP won $40.14
 

11/28/10 11:17 PM
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VectorWega
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All that bluffing finally paid off.  Everytime I had re-raised my opponents I was getting caught bluffing...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

MP ($82.34)
CO ($25)
Button ($24.48)
Hero (SB) ($50.85)
BB ($65.51)
UTG ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3d, 9d
2 folds, CO bets $0.75, Button calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) Ah, 8h, 3c (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.75, Button calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

Turn: ($7.75) 3s (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $3.50, Hero raises to $9, 1 fold, Button calls $5.50

River: ($25.75) 5d (2 players)
Hero bets $39.35 (All-In), Button calls $12.98 (All-In)

Total pot: $51.71 | Rake: $2.58

Results:
Button had Ac, Js (two pair, Aces and threes).
Hero had 3d, 9d (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $49.13
 

11/28/10 11:20 PM
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VectorWega
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 Ended slightly up on the day but need to stop with the monster bluffs when I'm stuck.  I also play too many hands when I'm stuck...I already play a ton of hands anyways.  I had stopped playing poker for a few weeks because I lost a ton of buy ins over a few day period..enough so that I had to consider dropping back to 10NL..albeit I didn't, and I do still have a bankroll for 25NL, but barely.

Maybe I should make a rule to never bluff big..at least at 25NL.  Sure, i sucked out on some but overall it doesn't seem to work out too well.  Perhaps start playing more Phil Hellmuth poker?
11/29/10 12:57 AM
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andre
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I think your bluffing is just fine, but man! what hand selection! lol Maniac! :)
11/29/10 2:22 AM
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wreckker
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 bluffing at that limit is sucide.. running a play with 74? 

If you have tilt problem at all you will never make a living at poker

realize many top player who have blow ups have side income and can afford to do that.

I know mike matasow from his party days and even then he had full tilt money coming in..could borrow money etc.


You cant tilt and make it......

why tilt ever?  If you understand the game well enugh then why play in a way that has negative expectation.

tilt is biggest reason why more peopl cant make a living playing poker.

My math understadning of the game desire to not have to answer to anyone is more than enough to keep me from tilting.




11/29/10 7:59 AM
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VectorWega
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 I'm gonna focus on playing tighter after taking a bad beat and see if that helps.
11/29/10 12:00 PM
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andre
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TitoOrtiz5 - He will also never make a living playing poker at such pathetically low levels.



I dont think the plan is ever to stay at "low" levels, unless it's just a hobby. I think Vector is approaching it the way it should be approached. I respect his discipline.
11/29/10 8:06 PM
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VectorWega
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TitoOrtiz5 - 
andre - 
TitoOrtiz5 - He will also never make a living playing poker at such pathetically low levels.



I dont think the plan is ever to stay at "low" levels, unless it's just a hobby. I think Vector is approaching it the way it should be approached. I respect his discipline.



I am under the impression that he has been playing the micro stakes for quite sometime now. It's time to go big or go home.
It's been a few months. When I first learned to play poker, I played at 100NL.  However, I decided that the best way for me to become a winning player was to play low stakes.  I started at $2 SNGs, moved to $5SNGs, and finally played some $10SNGs.  I was a winning player at SNGs but decided that 6-Max cash suited my style better and I played 10NL and now 25NL.  I'm sure I would be at 50NL if it weren't for the issue addressed in this thread.  However, I really haven't been at 25NL for all THAT long. 

I have a career and am in no rush to play high stakes, but my goal is to play as high as I am able to.  I hope that this approach will help me identify leaks and plug them while losing the minimum in the process.
11/29/10 8:15 PM
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VectorWega
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 I have a hard time believing that anyone is immune to tilt, albeit clearly some players are more prone to it than others.  In 2008 Patrik Antonius talked about a steaming off $100,000+ at a golf course because the club's management had tilted him so bad.

www.pokerkingblog.com/2008/07/12/patrik-antonius-is-pissed-and-wants-everyone-to-know-why/

Patrik admits to be steaming 24hrs after it happened:
www.rawvegas.tv/watch/patrik-antonius-has-something-against-the-wynn-golf-club/19f78deb62305304f43db66a624f5c

If Patrik can tilt, then anyone can.
11/29/10 9:00 PM
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andre
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VectorWega - 
TitoOrtiz5 - 
andre - 
TitoOrtiz5 - He will also never make a living playing poker at such pathetically low levels.



I dont think the plan is ever to stay at "low" levels, unless it's just a hobby. I think Vector is approaching it the way it should be approached. I respect his discipline.



I am under the impression that he has been playing the micro stakes for quite sometime now. It's time to go big or go home.
It's been a few months. When I first learned to play poker, I played at 100NL.  However, I decided that the best way for me to become a winning player was to play low stakes.  I started at $2 SNGs, moved to $5SNGs, and finally played some $10SNGs.  I was a winning player at SNGs but decided that 6-Max cash suited my style better and I played 10NL and now 25NL.  I'm sure I would be at 50NL if it weren't for the issue addressed in this thread.  However, I really haven't been at 25NL for all THAT long. 

I have a career and am in no rush to play high stakes, but my goal is to play as high as I am able to.  I hope that this approach will help me identify leaks and plug them while losing the minimum in the process.


I really cant say it enough, but the way you think, and act accordingly, on this really impresses me. I think it's exactly the way it should be done (even though I dont do it).
12/1/10 5:20 PM
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stillmatic
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Edited: 12/01/10 5:23 PM
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Tilt happens for everyone in some way, shape or form. I don't think anybody plays better when they're losing than when they're winning. It's how you deal with the losing that separates the winners from the losers in poker. For me, tilt is much more likely to happen when I'm playing at limits where the money matters. I don't really tilt much these days and usually recognize quickly when things are going bad and not likely to get better. Instead of trying to ride it out, most of the time I just quit and do something else more enjoyable than giving money away.

In the past when tilt was more of an issue, what I found helped was having nut bar sessions once in a while. Basically, that would be playing limits where the money didn't matter and you get to goof around and try to put some bad beats on other players. Trying to play well all the time is stressful and draining. Being able to play like an idiot sometimes can be fun and get off the grind a bit.
12/1/10 8:11 PM
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VectorWega
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 ^ yah, I was thinking of playing some $2 SNGs if I started playing bad.  Those stakes don't matter much to my bankroll and even if I'm playing bad I'm likely to win there.

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