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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Multitabling vs single table


12/2/10 11:39 AM
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andre
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To keep it simple, what is the benefit of playing two $27 SnGs, versus playing one $60 one?

Or 4 $16 tables instead of one $60?

And so on...

Is it simply for FPP points, or it to reduce variance?
12/2/10 3:33 PM
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stillmatic
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Your question doesn't make much sense. The level of competition for a $60 SNG is not the same as a $27 one. Somebody might play the lower ones just for the simple reason that they can beat the lower one and not the higher one or they don't have bankroll for the higher one.

As for multi-tabling in general, the reason to do it is to generate profit. If you can win 2 BB per 100 hands playing a single table versus 1 BB per 100 hands playing 3 tables for the same limit, it makes more sense to play the 3 tables if your interest is in maximizing profit. It's worthwhile to sacrifice win rate if you're making more profit by playing more tables.

This isn't always the case though as some people are better at multi-tabling than others. Some might find it better to stick to less tables as their win rate might drop drastically when they try to play more tables. It's about finding what works best for you.
12/2/10 3:49 PM
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andre
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"Your question doesn't make much sense. The level of competition for a $60 SNG is not the same as a $27 one. Somebody might play the lower ones just for the simple reason that they can beat the lower one and not the higher one or they don't have bankroll for the higher one."

Perhaps I didnt ask it well, but what I meant was that one should logically expect a higher ROI playing one table rather than playing several. Strictly in terms of bankroll, I would think that multitabling ten $11 tables would be roughly the same as playing one $119 table.

The level of competition would be a factor, of course, but I'm wondering if playing a single table with all of your focus, against better players, has roughly the same ROI as playing ten tables simulaneously against less-skilled players (who also may tend to call lighter given the lower stakes).

Multitabling is so foreign to me, so my questions are going to be poorly worded. Sorry, and thanks for taking the time to answer.
12/2/10 5:10 PM
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stillmatic
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Realistically, your win rate at something like a $109 SNG is going to be pretty low. They're very tough to beat given that most people know the optimal strategy to play them and it is almost all math based.

The BR requirements for $109 SNG's and $11 SNG's are drastically different. I don't play them often, but I would guess you need at least a 10k BR to be playing the 109's and probably something like $500 and up would be enough to play the 11's provided you are a decent player. BR requirements need to increase when you multi-table, because the assumption is your edge would be lower given that you are playing more tables and less optimally. The same can be said at higher limits where games are tougher and your edge is also smaller and thus variance will be greater making you need a larger bankroll to withstand the swings.

The ROI question is something I answered in my previous post. It depends on your win rates when it comes to single tabling versus multi-tabling. There's a ton of factors that go into determining that and how well you play at certain limits and how many tables you can optimally play at would answer that question. I would guess almost all players would end up with a higher ROI through multi-tabling than single-tabling though. Win rates at the higher limits are incredibly low in most cases.

My personal opinion is that unless you're playing nosebleeds, you should be definitely playing more than one table. Multi-tabling itself is a skill. It needs to be worked on and some people are better than others at it. You can be a mediocre player that is a marginal winner but do it playing a ton of tables and you'll probably more money than a very good player who is limited to 1 or 2 tables at a time.
12/2/10 5:42 PM
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wreckker
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 6-7 years ago the 210s were easy!

25 hour work week = 10k a month just playing 3-4

just got tougher and tougher

4 years ago i dabbled again and played 55s and 109s during a promotion at stars for a week

I won the promotion for 2k and made 3k in sitngos ...of course i ran well and am very good

at them.

I just dont play them anymore too easy a format to play pretty welll.

The glory years were amazing...I was lazy though!  RRRRRRRRRRRR
12/2/10 5:57 PM
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stillmatic
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My biggest regret in poker is not capitalizing on the glory days. Things came so easily that I got lazy and took breaks whenever I felt like it, which was frequently. Unfortunately, good things never last forever. Nowadays, I'm working 10 times harder and making less. It's really hard to get excited about that.
12/2/10 10:54 PM
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VectorWega
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 You would see far less variance playing 10 $11 tables than you would playing 1 $110 table.  If your variance is lower, then your bankroll requirements are also lower....way lower.  It's not really comparable.
12/3/10 2:02 AM
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wreckker
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stillmatic - My biggest regret in poker is not capitalizing on the glory days. Things came so easily that I got lazy and took breaks whenever I felt like it, which was frequently. Unfortunately, good things never last forever. Nowadays, I'm working 10 times harder and making less. It's really hard to get excited about that.

 i hear that!

grinding uggggggh 15 fuckin years
12/3/10 12:39 PM
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andre
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Thank you guys so much for the feedback. I'm still figuring it all out.

I think my plan is going to be as follows:

1) I'll continue to play cash live. I'm a winning player live, though I only recently started tracking my live sessions in any meaningful way.

2) I'm going to try to multitable the $16 SnGs. I dont know if I can handle more than 4 tables, so I'll start there.

3) I'll play medium stakes tourneys online one weeknight a week, and one Sunday major every two weeks.

4) Once a month I'll play a live tournament, where I seem to have the best results.
12/4/10 5:56 PM
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cadeswallows
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stillmatic - hey im curious what level ur playing at if u dont mind me asking. its not realy my business, but im curious what ur grindin and if ur playin seiously or just recreational right now.

other things like do u order hand histories for ur HUD? that is if ur even playin cash games?

do u even use a HUD/PT3/HEM?

do u think the cash games are softer on tilt as opposed to pstars?

i play at stars and its chalk full of regs, i set at a table and know at least 7 of the 9 players at my table almost all the time. bunch of sharks tryin to get 1 fishes money.

right now im playin 10-12 tables its not really that hard andre its like anything else it just takes practice. in 2011 the minimum im shooting for is supernova on stars. just making supernova and breaking even is worth 7k. so andre that would be one of the benefits of multitabling also.

happy variance
12/5/10 5:53 AM
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PR
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wreckker - 
stillmatic - My biggest regret in poker is not capitalizing on the glory days. Things came so easily that I got lazy and took breaks whenever I felt like it, which was frequently. Unfortunately, good things never last forever. Nowadays, I'm working 10 times harder and making less. It's really hard to get excited about that.

 i hear that!

grinding uggggggh 15 fuckin years


+1 my biggest regret too is slacking off. If only we knew lol.
12/6/10 9:36 AM
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andre
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I'm getting killed online. I cant stop entering the tourneys with $109-$215 entry fees and although I'm usually finishing deep, I'm blowing up somewhere before the bubble.

I was down to 82 people in a $215 tourney and was in the top 10, but after one bad beat and my wife complaining that I wasnt spending time with her, I went on tilt and donked off my stack quickly and painfully. I can't tell you how angry I was with myself when it was over. At one point, around 100 people left, I was first in chips with a decent lead over 2nd. First paid $18K.
12/6/10 12:23 PM
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andre
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By the way, I should have known that yesterday would be doomsday. I bought into the $215 tourney and was dealt aces on my second hand. Unfortunately, my friggin wireless mouse wasnt working. I quickly tried to change the batteries while it counted down, but even after changing them it didnt work and the hand folded. I took the batteries out and put them back in ONLY TO SEE ME GET DEALT KINGS. Seriously...almost back to back! ARGHHH...

I finally decided to restart the computer, and it finally worked, but I missed out on two big hands. Fortunately, it was early so I probably would have won a relatively small pot, but still...painful.
12/6/10 3:43 PM
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stillmatic
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cadeswallows - stillmatic - hey im curious what level ur playing at if u dont mind me asking. its not realy my business, but im curious what ur grindin and if ur playin seiously or just recreational right now.

other things like do u order hand histories for ur HUD? that is if ur even playin cash games?

do u even use a HUD/PT3/HEM?

do u think the cash games are softer on tilt as opposed to pstars?

i play at stars and its chalk full of regs, i set at a table and know at least 7 of the 9 players at my table almost all the time. bunch of sharks tryin to get 1 fishes money.

right now im playin 10-12 tables its not really that hard andre its like anything else it just takes practice. in 2011 the minimum im shooting for is supernova on stars. just making supernova and breaking even is worth 7k. so andre that would be one of the benefits of multitabling also.

happy variance


I play as a primary source of income. I started playing back in 2003, so I'm actually considered a veteran when it comes to online poker. I play a wide range of games, everything from mass multi-tabling 20 tables of low limit poker, HU and 6-max games at the middle stakes and occasionally the higher stakes when the games are good. I play primarily cash games and limit HE in general, but occasionally play NL, Omaha and Stud as a change of pace. In the past, I was more of a HU and short-handed specialist, but getting action while being that doesn't work out too well when people aren't really willing to play each other these days without an edge.

I still just use Pokertracker V2 to review hand histories and track results, but really I should be moving onto the newer stuff and incorporating HUD, but I've been too lazy to really look into it. All this type of software, Cardrunners and that kind of stuff is really what has killed a lot of the action out there and made games so difficult in my opinion. I think everyone should use this stuff that's out there for their own benefit, but poker in general would be a lot better off without this stuff in my opinion.

I don't play a huge amount on Full Tilt, but I think they're pretty similar. Full Tilt might be slightly softer as most of the real true grinders are playing on Pokerstars, because of the points structure and larger game selection.

I think the important thing to do when you're playing in those kinds of games on with a lot of regulars is to try and pick up their tendencies, so that you can play optimally against them. The thing about these types of players is they play pretty decently, but can be exploited because most are on auto-pilot and don't make adjustments well.

If you're gonna be playing on Stars, you should definitely be trying to get to Supernova at the very least. Many players break even or lose money even and end up turning a profit because they grind out a lot of hands and hit some of the higher bonus milestones.
12/6/10 3:51 PM
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stillmatic
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andre - By the way, I should have known that yesterday would be doomsday. I bought into the $215 tourney and was dealt aces on my second hand. Unfortunately, my friggin wireless mouse wasnt working. I quickly tried to change the batteries while it counted down, but even after changing them it didnt work and the hand folded. I took the batteries out and put them back in ONLY TO SEE ME GET DEALT KINGS. Seriously...almost back to back! ARGHHH...

I finally decided to restart the computer, and it finally worked, but I missed out on two big hands. Fortunately, it was early so I probably would have won a relatively small pot, but still...painful.


Technical fails, mis-clicks and etc are the thing that tilts me more than anything else. Often times, I just quit a session early if something like that happens as I know it will be bothering me for a while. A bad beat I can deal with, but losing a big pot, because my internet or power goes down really pisses me off.
12/6/10 4:02 PM
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PR
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I'm the same stillmatic.
12/6/10 5:20 PM
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wreckker
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 There is still good value in tornies ...cashgames you do need to be selective..

12/7/10 1:36 AM
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cadeswallows
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wow, game wize u guys are all over the place. im just trying to become a one trick pony and beat one particular game for a good clip at a high enuff limit to pull in an extra 10-15k per year.

pt2? seriously bro, ur in the stone ages. jk

thx, cade

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