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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Call overshove with AK in this situation?


12/13/10 1:02 PM
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andre
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Edited: 12/13/10 3:06 PM
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I cant paste the hand history because Im at work, but yesterday I was in the Pokerstars $100K guarantee and had approximately 9K in chips when the blinds were 50/100. I was UTG with AK and I raised to 2.5x. Everyone folded but the SB, who had been trying to provoke me through chat since I beat him in a hand (I had KK and he folded to my bet on the turn), shoved all in for 4K.

I called and he showed AQ.

Results aside (he spiked a Q on the flop), do you fold to a huge overshove in that situation, or do you assume an underpair and NOT take a flip?

(edited: I asked the question poorly the first time. Probably still asked it poorly.)
12/13/10 3:24 PM
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SiftMyMind
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It is possible that you used some sort of read on the guy that he was trying to scare you with a lesser hand and/or was on tilt (based on your history with him), and that was your motive for calling his all-in. If that was indeed your reasoning, then your read was correct and you were a 71% favourite to win the hand and just suffered a bad beat.

It is also possible that there was some type of pissing contest going on which may have affected the judgement of both players.

12/13/10 3:27 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 12/13/10 3:28 PM
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12/13/10 3:28 PM
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SiftMyMind
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If RESONABLE poker is being played among people who have no history with one another and someone UTG makes a raise, I would have to ask myself what range of hands would I go all-in from the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack.

Personally, I wouldn’t push all-in from the SB given that situation with anything less than AA or KK in which your AK would be a huge underdog.
Even someone else with a wider ‘all-in’ rage from SB given that situation who may move-in with an under pair (like QQ) would make your AK a 45% underdog.

Would you really want to call the all-in given either of those circumstances?
What would be your rage of hands that you would go all-in with in the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack?

12/13/10 3:35 PM
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wreckker
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 normally its a muck..

cuz your UTG should mean at best u have same hand or a flip or worse.

I would of called too like u did because he was lookin ot get ya!


12/13/10 3:40 PM
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andre
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SiftMyMind - If RESONABLE poker is being played among people who have no history with one another and someone UTG makes a raise, I would have to ask myself what range of hands would I go all-in from the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack.

Personally, I wouldn't push all-in from the SB given that situation with anything less than AA or KK in which your AK would be a huge underdog.
Even someone else with a wider 'all-in' rage from SB given that situation who may move-in with an under pair (like QQ) would make your AK a 45% underdog.

Would you really want to call the all-in given either of those circumstances?
What would be your rage of hands that you would go all-in with in the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack?



Sift, there definitely was a weird vibe coming from him. He was chatting the entire time and in a really annoying, trying-to-piss-me-off kind of way, so I can't say that it wasnt a factor in my decision, but I also saw him make several really bad plays and when I searched for any tourney results on him, he had none. It made me think he was a total beginner, or worse, someone like me who kind of has an idea but makes bonehead plays from time to time.

I actually put him on a medium pair. I felt that I needed some flips in order to build a stack for that large field, and since I had more than twice as many chips as the average stack, I could take a chance and still be totally in the game if I lost.

The hand that actually knocked me out was pathetic. 4 people in the pot and my stack is a bit below the average. I'm on the BB with KJo. Early position raised to 3X and when it got around to me I felt I was priced in to call, even though I was first to act. I had around 15BBs before calling. The flop came Q-J-3. I flopped an open-ended draw, so I shoved. Everyone folded except a guy who tanked and then called with T9o. The turn was a K, giving him the straight, and I was drawing to an A or a 9 with one card to go and I missed.
12/13/10 3:41 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 12/13/10 3:42 PM
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12/13/10 3:43 PM
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andre
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wreckker -  normally its a muck..

cuz your UTG should mean at best u have same hand or a flip or worse.

I would of called too like u did because he was lookin ot get ya!




Wreckker, assuming you didnt have any kind of read, but with stack sizes being what they were, you'd still much? My thinking must have been way off then. You wouldnt put him on AA or KK there, would you? Too much of an overbet for that, especially from a guy who had position on me...imo.
12/13/10 3:44 PM
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SiftMyMind
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wreckker -  normally its a muck..

cuz your UTG should mean at best u have same hand or a flip or worse.




I agree.

Given the type of hand range that I would have to put the SB on to make an all-in move like that against my UTG raise, given the circumstances (stack sizes, etc.) and given no information on the SB player, I would fold from the UTG position in that situation.

12/13/10 3:45 PM
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andre
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SiftMyMind - What would be your rage of hands that you would go all-in with in the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack?




I dont have a range for that. Under no circumstances would I shove with AA or KK, or any other hand, with 40+ BBs. I guess that's not true. If I had AA and KK and was absolutely certain to get a call if I shoved, then I would, but otherwise, why would I kill the action?
12/13/10 3:47 PM
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andre
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One more scenario where I'd shove. I'm in the BB and there has been a raise, a reraise, and a caller. When it gets to me, I'd shove with AA and KK. But that's it.
12/13/10 4:13 PM
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SiftMyMind
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andre -
SiftMyMind - What would be your rage of hands that you would go all-in with in the SB with a big stack where there has been an UTG raise by someone with a bigger stack?




I dont have a range for that. Under no circumstances would I shove with AA or KK, or any other hand, with 40+ BBs. I guess that's not true. If I had AA and KK and was absolutely certain to get a call if I shoved, then I would, but otherwise, why would I kill the action?


.....


andre - One more scenario where I'd shove. I'm in the BB and there has been a raise, a reraise, and a caller. When it gets to me, I'd shove with AA and KK. But that's it.




Andre,

Stick to the circumstances, bro.

What's of issue/what I am thinking is this; 'IF I decided to shove from SB where there is a UTG raise, what hand range would I do that with?' For me it's AA or KK.

Now, I am not saying that for sure I would shove. Sure, I might slow play AA in that situation (head's up). But, that’s not what's of issue.

It’s like working backwards. The ‘all-in’ move is already a MUST (because that’s the circumstances of the scenario you gave). By defining what hands I would require GIVEN THAT MOVE, then, hopefully, I can make sense of my opponent’s actions.


12/13/10 4:17 PM
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andre
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Sift, honestly, I dont think you can frame it that way. If you are asking what I "might" shove in that case (working backwards as if I already did shove), then it would be JJ. I wouldnt do it, but the way youve asked it is that Ive already shoved and now I need to figure out what I would shove...

3-betting to 3X, 4X, or 5X my raise isnt slowplaying AA. When you have 40BBs, there simply isnt a justification for shoving them, so its hard to call a normal 3-bet a "slowplay."
12/13/10 4:40 PM
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wreckker
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andre - 
wreckker -  normally its a muck..

cuz your UTG should mean at best u have same hand or a flip or worse.

I would of called too like u did because he was lookin ot get ya!




Wreckker, assuming you didnt have any kind of read, but with stack sizes being what they were, you'd still much? My thinking must have been way off then. You wouldnt put him on AA or KK there, would you? Too much of an overbet for that, especially from a guy who had position on me...imo.


If I had no read its close but still there is little dead money to fight over you only put n 250 plus 300 out there so dead money is 550.  Him shoving in 4k should be ak or pair he is a idiot for shoving aq.

 You said you were UTG and he was small blind...so you would have position on him after the flop.


Most players will not shove AQ in that spot at all

The blinds are so small there is little dead money to fight over.

I OVERSHOVE with AA and KK in his spot beacuse u are raising UTG and its a good way to get money in asap out of position.

Its just a simple math problem really with no post flop play at all.

Risk 4000 to win 4500

Only reason I call like you said is he was going after you...anyone else decent its sually a muck.

If a good player shoves on you there ur tied, in a race, or in trouble.

you have no equity possibility in hand match up...  only the 500 the dead money.

Even if he has AA or KK 15% of the time with that shove its not worth the call









12/13/10 4:41 PM
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wreckker
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 oops 600 dead money
12/13/10 4:51 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 12/13/10 4:51 PM
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12/13/10 4:54 PM
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SiftMyMind
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andre - I actually put him on a medium pair. I felt that I needed some flips in order to build a stack for that large field, and since I had more than twice as many chips as the average stack, I could take a chance and still be totally in the game if I lost.




You've said that you yourself would only shove from the SB in that situation if you had JJ.
Which makes sense since that's exactly what hand you had put him on.

The point I am trying make (apparently, not doing a good job making it) is that reading your opponent’s plays frequently requires putting yourself in his/her shoes.
It’s something I am working on in my own game when there is a huge move made by my opponent.

......

On a different note, I'm sure you were pleasantly surprised to see his AQ (which was totally dominated by your AK) when you called his all-in.

That was real a bad beat.
It’s too bad that jerk got off so easily.

Great thread!


12/13/10 7:26 PM
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PR
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I'm sorry for your bad beat andre. :)
12/13/10 8:24 PM
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andre
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Guys, you are going to hate me, but I think I have some details wrong. I'm going to see I'd I can get the hand history. He wasn't in the SB...I combined that with another hand that was on my mind.

I promise to only post hand histories from now on.
12/13/10 8:44 PM
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PR
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andre - Guys, you are going to hate me, but I think I have some details wrong. I'm going to see I'd I can get the hand history. He wasn't in the SB...I combined that with another hand that was on my mind.

I promise to only post hand histories from now on.


It's amazing how terrible our memories are.

That's why I bitch at people to either post the hand history (if online) or immediately write down the details of the hand right then and there.
12/13/10 8:55 PM
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andre
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PR, you are so right. Here it is. Clearly it was an easy call, imo. Just a bad beat.

*********** # 88 **************
PokerStars Game #54176389082: Tournament #343011047, $150+$12 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/12/12 22:26:49 ET
Table '343011047 63' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: UhhMee (3871 in chips)
Seat 2: Hallrmonky2 (2407 in chips)
Seat 3: The CooI (3490 in chips)
Seat 4: calvo1989 (3670 in chips)
Seat 5: kaiyang423 (3359 in chips)
Seat 6: LosharaUZ (8770 in chips)
Seat 7: omar2004 (2331 in chips)
Seat 8: Delaboa (4632 in chips)
Seat 9: Sbux Warrior (13578 in chips)
kaiyang423: posts small blind 100
LosharaUZ: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sbux Warrior [Ks Ac]
omar2004: folds
Delaboa: folds
Sbux Warrior: raises 279 to 479
UhhMee: folds
Hallrmonky2: folds
The CooI: raises 3011 to 3490 and is all-in
calvo1989: folds
kaiyang423: folds
LosharaUZ: folds
Sbux Warrior: calls 3011
*** FLOP *** [As 4h Qc]
*** TURN *** [As 4h Qc] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [As 4h Qc 2h] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sbux Warrior: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Aces)
The CooI: shows [Qs Ah] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
The CooI collected 7280 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7280 | Rake 0
Board [As 4h Qc 2h 5s]
Seat 1: UhhMee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Hallrmonky2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: The CooI showed [Qs Ah] and won (7280) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 4: calvo1989 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: kaiyang423 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: LosharaUZ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: omar2004 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Delaboa folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Sbux Warrior showed [Ks Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
12/13/10 11:39 PM
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wreckker
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 Andre details are so far off its not even the same kind of hand!


Calf for brains!

easy call
12/13/10 11:41 PM
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andre
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LOL!

Sorry, I was at work and really in the mood to talk poker. For some reason, that hand stood out. I think it's because he pissed me off so much. I should post the remainder of the chat.

I finally just stopped responding and he shut up. I should have done that from the beginning.
12/14/10 3:19 AM
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PR
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Andre, suck it up man. Here's what happened to me yesterday... same thing... only twice, only a few minutes apart, and WAYYYY deeper in a tournament.

I was 75% each time. The chance of losing both is 1/16.


No Limit Holdem Tournament
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$10+$1

Stacks:
UTG 208k
Hero 443k
MP1 153k
MP2 533k
CO 123k
BTN 277k
SB 159k
BB 44k

Blinds: 3k/6k Ante 600

Pre-Flop: (14k, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1 Kc Ad
UTG raises to 12k, Hero raises to 28k, 6 folds, UTG goes all-in 207k, Hero calls 179k

Flop: 5c Th Qd (428k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: 9c (428k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: 2d (428k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 428k
UTG shows a pair of Queens
Ah Qs
Hero shows high card Ace
Kc Ad

UTG wins 428k (net +220k)

Hero lost 208k




No Limit Holdem Tournament
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$10+$1

Stacks:
UTG 408k
UTG+1 284k
MP 256k
Hero 452k
BTN 356k
SB 802k
BB 244k

Blinds: 4k/8k Ante 800

Pre-Flop: (18k, 7 players) Hero is CO Ad Kh
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 19k, 1 fold, Hero raises to 32k, 3 folds, UTG+1 goes all-in 283k, Hero calls 251k

Flop: Qs 3d Jc (584k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: 2s (584k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: Js (584k, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 584k
UTG+1 shows three of a kind, Jacks
Jh As
Hero shows a pair of Jacks
Ad Kh

UTG+1 wins 584k (net +300k)

Hero lost 284k
12/14/10 10:52 AM
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andre
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Ouch. Makes me feel like getting it in with the worst of it is ideal-- you either give a bad beat, or at least feel less frustration when you don't.

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