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HolyGround >> Billions going to HELL. Hell by the numbers...


12/22/10 12:51 AM
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dabigchet
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Some less fire and brimstoney version of hell, and the idea that souls have not yet reached their final destination does not invalidate the math in the thread. It's pretty clear from the bible that it is the minority that toes the line and passes god's divine sniff test, so I'm not exactly sure why you are painting this as a fundamentalists thing. Also, you are mischaracterizing the catechism on non-Catholics. Phone Post
12/22/10 12:56 AM
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Ridgeback
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Metal Andy - "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

sure he wants people to follow him, who doesnt. the notion of judging people based on their beliefs over their actions is just not a good way to go about things.

 This is just another example of what I am getting at.  It seems like you want Christianity to take on a cartoon aspect so it is much easier to reject.  This is what I am trying to figure out.  In my BJJ metaphor a reasonable person would go to the best BJJ schools he could find to truly evaluate the art.  Only then would he be satisfied about what he finds.  That is, unless, he already had it in for BJJ in the first place and was just looking for an experience to verify what he had already decided.  

Anyway, the Bible clearly teaches that Judgment is based on action:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

12/22/10 1:28 AM
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Ridgeback
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dabigchet -  Some less fire and brimstoney version of hell, and the idea that souls have not yet reached their final destination does not invalidate the math in the thread. It's pretty clear from the bible that it is the minority that toes the line and passes god's divine sniff test, so I'm not exactly sure why you are painting this as a fundamentalists thing. Also, you are mischaracterizing the catechism on non-Catholics. Phone Post
Paragraphs 847/848 from the CCC:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

 

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 
12/22/10 5:27 AM
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RickRude
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you sound like another twisted OG redneck/hillbilly/hick...you guys really come from the sticks...here's a fact to chew on: America and England's murderous foreign policies, aggressive wars against Third World nations etc are largely enacted by White Anglo Saxon Protestants...these people are the heads of military, banking, finance, government, politics...
12/22/10 6:44 AM
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David@accu
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ptper - God is real A-Hole if you think about it.

What about all the people who had lived and died prior to him informing mankind of his presence by sending his son?

Do they get a free pass? A second try?

Kind of unfair if you ax me.

 or the millions of babies he killed in the "great flood". He also wiped the planet of every kitten too! I wonder if god is so powerful how come he just didn't kill all the humans? Why would he need to kill the animals?
12/22/10 6:54 AM
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David@accu
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dabigchet - 
dangerboy12 -  Where in the bible does it say non believers go to hell? I must have missed that part.


this one seems pretty clear:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (New International Version, ©2010)

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might


Ummm no it isn't. It doesn't mention hell once. It says that people will be punished and will be shut out from God. Where does is specifically mention the word "HELL". It's sometimes shocking to me that people have been in indoctrinated by religion to the point they no longer can read words for what they say. Everything must have a deeper meaning and of course that meaning isn't in the bible someone told you. 

What you posted has nothing to do with hell. It is talking about people being punished. If I was a person who knew NOTHING about christianity where would I find the word hell in the bible. It's really a simple question yet I doubt I will get a straight answer. More of " you have to read between the lines" nonsense. It's not reading between the lines when you simply make up half the story.

Lets try the question again...


Where in the bible will I find DIRECT reference to hell? Of course I will except the words Hades too as I know it doesn't say "hell" in the bible.
12/22/10 7:03 AM
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David@accu
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 ughhhhh fucking KJV. I forgot they added the word hell. How can anyone read the KJV and not question it's authenticity? You have people adding words that don't belong.  Then they slowly take them out.
12/22/10 7:49 AM
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dabigchet
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Ridgeback - 
dabigchet -  Some less fire and brimstoney version of hell, and the idea that souls have not yet reached their final destination does not invalidate the math in the thread. It's pretty clear from the bible that it is the minority that toes the line and passes god's divine sniff test, so I'm not exactly sure why you are painting this as a fundamentalists thing. Also, you are mischaracterizing the catechism on non-Catholics. Phone Post
Paragraphs 847/848 from the CCC:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

 

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 


yes, i know this well. i have never heard a catholic apologist (and i have listened to quite a few discuss this) explain that "no fault of their own" to mean non-christians. it means people without access to the truth as taught by the catholic faith. so, among the 700 million being sent on their road for damnation this year (all aboard!), you are far better off being a chinese atheist who really would have no real access to catholicism, than an american protestant with full understanding of catholic history and teaching (assuming both are equally good people).
12/22/10 8:01 AM
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dabigchet
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David@accu - 
dabigchet - 
dangerboy12 -  Where in the bible does it say non believers go to hell? I must have missed that part.


this one seems pretty clear:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (New International Version, ©2010)

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might


Ummm no it isn't. It doesn't mention hell once. It says that people will be punished and will be shut out from God. Where does is specifically mention the word "HELL". It's sometimes shocking to me that people have been in indoctrinated by religion to the point they no longer can read words for what they say. Everything must have a deeper meaning and of course that meaning isn't in the bible someone told you. 

What you posted has nothing to do with hell. It is talking about people being punished. If I was a person who knew NOTHING about christianity where would I find the word hell in the bible. It's really a simple question yet I doubt I will get a straight answer. More of " you have to read between the lines" nonsense. It's not reading between the lines when you simply make up half the story.

Lets try the question again...


Where in the bible will I find DIRECT reference to hell? Of course I will except the words Hades too as I know it doesn't say "hell" in the bible.


ok, from here on out i'll say "a place where non-believers are punished with everlasting destruction". is that better?

christians on the forum do this sort of crap all the time. "i believe in gehanna, not hell". or "hell is just the absence of god", or "the word hell isn't even in the bible". none of it really matters for the discussion. there is clearly a punishment, that is clearly eternal, that must be different place. is that really in dispute? this thread is more about the working the numbers than haggling with different notions on exactly what that place is.
12/22/10 8:16 AM
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dangerboy12
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 You need to study the bible a lot more dude. And not the hack King James Version either. They added shit just to appeal to non Christians, and the idea of hell is one of the things they added.

Read the Old Testament. No where does it even remotely discuss "eternal punishment." They couldn't mess with the Old Testament a whole lot because jews and muslims still use it.
12/22/10 8:21 AM
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sourcheese
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Edited: 12/22/10 8:22 AM
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I think it means you just stay dead.

I dont remember him saying... let there be hell! a place for satan to rule as he sees fit!

Why would someone born a viking who died of pnumonia at the age of 12 who worshiped odin be sent to hell because he didnt believe in something he had no idea about?

12/22/10 8:24 AM
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dabigchet
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the idea of a place that people go where they are removed from god eternally is not a king james invention. again, whether or not we call this "hell" for the purpose of this discussion, or whether souls are there yet really doesn't matter for the math exercise.

if you are telling me that the new testament is a bunch of hooey i am inclined to agree with you.
12/22/10 11:42 AM
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dangerboy12
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 you are correct. Being removed from god eternally is what happens. You are not tortured forever. You and your soul are destroyed, forever. And you can only destroy things once, you can't do it over and over. There is no eternal suffering. That is a myth. It's not biblical.
12/22/10 12:09 PM
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dabigchet
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in your view of christianity, which doesn't even represent the majority view. you may have it right, you may not. from where i sit you are all equally goofy. there IS biblical support for eternal suffering (gnashing of teeth and whatnot). it doesn't matter to me either way for this discussion. having my soul destroyed forever for a thought crime seems pretty shitty also.
12/29/10 2:36 AM
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Ridgeback
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 This was an OG thread and whatever mod moved it is violating Kirik's rules. 
12/29/10 12:00 PM
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HELWIG
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 "sure he wants people to follow him, who doesnt. the notion of judging people based on their beliefs over their actions is just not a good way to go about things."

Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are empty.

I can go visit orphanages and give the homeless food simply because I want to run for mayor in 5 years and am working on my public image.
12/29/10 12:22 PM
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dabigchet
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"Works without faith are empty" is complete bullshit.

if you brought joy to the orphans, or the homeless got to eat that night, i am sure they could have given a shit if you went to church the next Sunday or not.
12/29/10 5:13 PM
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David@accu
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 Here is a question in terms of the same line of questioning.


What about babies, children, illiterate, and people with mental disorders who are all incapable of understanding the bible? What happens when they die? If they are incapable of knowing what the bible says then they must all burn in hell too, correct?

Religion - Sending babies to hell since the start of time.
12/29/10 5:18 PM
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Ridgeback
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dabigchet - "Works without faith are empty" is complete bullshit.

if you brought joy to the orphans, or the homeless got to eat that night, i am sure they could have given a shit if you went to church the next Sunday or not.

 You are still conceiving of heaven and hell as a system of rewards and punishments meted out by an arbitrary judge.  But that really isn't the biblical picture (although some verses read in isolation would certainly lead one to this view).  The judgment, according to St. John, is that those who are in darkness hate the light.  It isn't that they are being thrown into darkness, but through the twisting of their own free will they put themselves in darkness.  So in the example given above a person who only does charity for his own ego gratification or to impress others really hasn't learned to love in the agape sense of the word and is therefore still in darkness.  If he is put in the light the light will only be torture for him.  Good works are not an end in themselves.  They are the fruit of a fully human person who would be in heaven if he was in God's presence.  

When you conceive of the Church as a spiritual hospital designed to pull those in darkness into the light then it makes more sense why it is a vital element to all of this.
1/2/11 9:00 AM
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jimmy23
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 " It isn't that they are being thrown into darkness, but through the twisting of their own free will they put themselves in darkness."


or as a Pentecostal friend once said to me, talking about his early life and the mistakes he had made

"I wasnt punished for my sins, I was punished by my sins"
1/2/11 9:22 AM
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dabigchet
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Ridgeback - 
 You are still conceiving of heaven and hell as a system of rewards and punishments meted out by an arbitrary judge.


my comment didnt have anything to do with hell or christianity specifically.
1/2/11 9:30 AM
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dabigchet
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jimmy23 -  "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 20px; font-size: small; "> It isn't that they are being thrown into darkness, but through the twisting of their own free will they put themselves in darkness."


or as a Pentecostal friend once said to me, talking about his early life and the mistakes he had made

"I wasnt punished for my sins, I was punished by my sins"<br type="_moz" /></span>


christians like to take a simple term that everybody would understand: "not believing in christianity", or "not believing in my particular flavor of christianity" and obfuscate it into bullshit like "twisting of your own free will". they do this because the truth: eternal punishment for the thought crime of not believing a certain religious faith sounds horrible immoral. and that's because it is.

a person cannot simply exercise his free will to believe something in the face of lack of evidence and/or contradictory religious indoctrination from birth. how anyone could view a god with such a requirement for salvation as moral is completely beyond me.
1/3/11 2:53 PM
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Ridgeback
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dabigchet - 
Ridgeback - 
 You are still conceiving of heaven and hell as a system of rewards and punishments meted out by an arbitrary judge.


my comment didnt have anything to do with hell or christianity specifically.

 You mean despite being on a thread about it right?
1/4/11 9:28 AM
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dabigchet
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Ridgeback - 
 You mean despite being on a thread about it right?


that's right. my comment about "faith without works is empty" applies whether or not you believe in hell. i do appreciate your extra level of forum moderation, though.
1/4/11 6:34 PM
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Ridgeback
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dabigchet - 
Ridgeback - 
 You mean despite being on a thread about it right?


that's right. my comment about "faith without works is empty" applies whether or not you believe in hell. i do appreciate your extra level of forum moderation, though.

 The problem is you missed my point, which addressed your point both in relation to heaven and hell and in relation to a materialist conception of good works.  Surely you will agree that a rich man who does good works to look good and help his public persona is on a very different level from a person who quietly gives half of his meager income away and neither wants nor receives accolades for it.  You are focusing solely on the people who benefit, whereas I am also looking at the people who are doing the giving since the state of their souls is actually important too.

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