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HolyGround >> Billions going to HELL. Hell by the numbers...


1/4/11 7:57 PM
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HELWIG
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 "Works without faith are empty" is complete bullshit.

if you brought joy to the orphans, or the homeless got to eat that night, i am sure they could have given a shit if you went to church the next Sunday or not."

SHOCKINGLY, you completely missed the point. Which was not that you still didnt give someone something to each, but that the motivation behind your actions is very important. This is reflected even in secular society such as sentencing in the justice system.

Perhaps Im wasting my time, or perhaps another example will suffice. Some billionaire can send money to feed and arm a rebel group solely because the more violence in that country the more his competitor's drilling operation will be disrupted.

We are looking at this from the perspective of each person's heart and true motives being known to God, not what you would prefer as the orphan. Obviously youd take the food and not care where or why you got it.

 
 
1/5/11 9:08 AM
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dabigchet
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Ridgeback - 
 The problem is you missed my point, which addressed your point both in relation to heaven and hell and in relation to a materialist conception of good works.  Surely you will agree that a rich man who does good works to look good and help his public persona is on a very different level from a person who quietly gives half of his meager income away and neither wants nor receives accolades for it.  You are focusing solely on the people who benefit, whereas I am also looking at the people who are doing the giving since the state of their souls is actually important too.


i fully understand your point. and sure, the silent giver may be a better person, but in the absence of a soul (which i find no reason to think actually exists) the motivation of the giver really becomes far less significant. at the end of the day, i don't think it really matters at all whether bill gates truly is trying to do his best for humanity, or whether he cares more about his legacy. what matters most is the benefit of his works to the people who need them.
1/6/11 2:20 AM
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Ridgeback
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 CS Lewis said something likewise when he pointed out that character stretched over a normal human life time was less important than character stretched over eternity.  But I think you also prove too much.  Bill Gates also actively supports population control initiatives, which means he is consciously putting money behind stopping future individuals from existing, or being brought to term.  If humans have no souls then their existence or non-existence lacks significance.  We will all be extinct soon enough, so it is probably better to not have existed in the first place.
1/7/11 5:00 AM
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Sliced
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The god of the OT is a monster. I wouldn't want to be in heaven with that guy anyway.
2/7/11 6:30 PM
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Grakman
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Sliced - The god of the OT is a monster. I wouldn't want to be in heaven with that guy anyway.

 What kind of God would you like?
2/8/11 4:46 AM
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Sliced
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Grakman - 
Sliced - The god of the OT is a monster. I wouldn't want to be in heaven with that guy anyway.

 What kind of God would you like?


I don't want one. But if I had to choose, I'd pick one that doesn't order genocide. I think Odin would be cool. Or maybe Venus. That chick was foine.
2/8/11 9:52 AM
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David@accu
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 bwahahah is there anyone that doesn't regularly own you Ridgeback? You get laughed at by every side. I would suggest stop bullshitting and just read for a change. It might help you from getting verbally raped in every religious thread by people who obviously know more than you.
2/8/11 10:05 AM
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dabigchet
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rb thinks that because he doesn't call it hell, and doesn't picture it as fire and brimstone, that his beliefs are somehow above the discussion.

the fact of the matter is that ALL christians believe in eternal punishment for those who simply are unable to believe something for which there is no evidence. a permanent punishment for a thought crime. that there is disagreement on what that punishment is (fire and brimstone vs simply existing in a less desirable place/state) doesn't change the fact that the fundamental position among all christians is the same.
2/8/11 10:32 AM
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David@accu
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dabigchet - rb thinks that because he doesn't call it hell, and doesn't picture it as fire and brimstone, that his beliefs are somehow above the discussion.

the fact of the matter is that ALL christians believe in eternal punishment for those who simply are unable to believe something for which there is no evidence. a permanent punishment for a thought crime. that there is disagreement on what that punishment is (fire and brimstone vs simply existing in a less desirable place/state) doesn't change the fact that the fundamental position among all christians is the same.

 RB thinks he is above everyone and tries to play the "grass is greener" nonsense. He lacks any sense of history and any real knowledge about religion in general and how they came to be. He refuses to tell people what his belieifs are but feels it's ok to comment on how everyone else is wrong.
2/8/11 1:14 PM
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colubrid1
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This thread and the people who post in it is proof that the gates are narrow. Narrower than the OP states.

First of all releigion or being "religios" will not get you to heaven. religion is always man centered. Not God centered.

Also the notion in christian churches that God meets us where we are at is no where in the bible. It is a fallicy made up by 'grace" type churches (where you will find ,more sin than anywhere. We must come to His standards.

The main message that churches miss is to REPENT! REPENT! REPENT!

and keep on repenting...

beleiving in Jesus does not save you.

Living a good life (being a good person/following the law) does not save you.

Understanding sin and what God came here to do for us is key to the start of your salvation. Yes it is a free gift. But to use it as a carte blanch' "get-in-free" card is the mistake that so many "so called" christians make.
2/8/11 2:14 PM
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dabigchet
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colubrid1 - 

Living a good life (being a good person/following the law) does not save you.

Understanding sin and what God came here to do for us is key to the start of your salvation. Yes it is a free gift.


some gift.

if i buy you a present, don't tell you where it is or that i even bought you one (wrapped, with your name on it), yet if you find it you are free to keep it, i am not exactly giving you a gift. if anything, i am fucking with you.
2/8/11 2:38 PM
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colubrid1
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dabigchet,

Do you suppose God is stupid?

Rom 2;4
or do you thik lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

The phrase "not knowing" means you either lack IQ or lack information.

Either way you are responsible for that. God also said the truth is written on every mans heart:

Ron 2:19
because that which is known about God is evident within them;for God made it evident to tem.
2/8/11 2:54 PM
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dabigchet
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"Do you suppose God is stupid?"

i don't suppose god exists. i am saying the proposition that you described is not a gift, and my example that i provided illustrates it. it would make no sense for me to characterize a being that i don't think exists as "stupid" or anything else.

you are saying that your specific interpretation of one holy book is the correct one that is written on everyone's heart, yet probably only < 5% of the worlds population would share your exact religious point of view. the rest of the billions and billions are doomed.

let's say you were raised a muslim and were completely indoctrinated in that religion. as an adult, you had unfettered access to the religious point of view that you just posted. there is almost zero percent chance you would accept it. is the truth written on your heart in that scenario? are you responsible for not knowing? do you deserve to be in hell with the rest of the billions?
2/8/11 3:47 PM
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colubrid1
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dabigchet-

Rom 2;28
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,



Depravity says that you are spiritually dead and incapable of making a right decision.

Depravity is intended to show us how bad we are and that God still loves us.
2/8/11 3:48 PM
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dabigchet
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can you answer my questions?
2/8/11 4:00 PM
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colubrid1
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I did. You are spritually depraved. Do you disagree with that?
2/8/11 4:15 PM
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dabigchet
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you most certainly did not. i numbered them to help you out:

"let's say you were raised a muslim and were completely indoctrinated in that religion. as an adult, you had unfettered access to the religious point of view that you just posted. there is almost zero percent chance you would accept it.

1. is the truth written on your heart in that scenario?
2. are you responsible for not knowing?
3. do you deserve to be in hell with the rest of the billions? "

if you could define "spiritually depraved" for me, i would be happy to tell you whether or not such a label is accurate for me.
2/8/11 4:39 PM
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colubrid1
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Almost zero chance to accept it is correct. That is why the gates are narrower than institutional christianity thinks. God kills everybody. The fact that you will die is enough proof of your sin.

1)yes
2)yes-but they do know.
3)yes


Also sin begets sin. It is part of Gods wrath. Muslems, abortionists, homosexuality, evolutionists are all an attack on God. Their children asnd wht they teach them is the same.


You can talk to other people about about muhammed, buddah and even say "god" all day long. But say the word JESUS and people flip out. Why is that?

Religion never focuses on God. Just man and his acheivments. Religion is man centered.


I did define 'sprititually depraved" for you. Did you not read my post?

If you are spritually depraved and cannot make a right decision, then what excuse is next? Mormonism? Buddah? Christian scientist?

"Depravity" is a word derived from metal workers. That metal that is thrown away and is not used for anything.

We were all once spritually depraved. That is what we are born into. That is what we are. Sinners. We love our sin with all our heart, mind and body. It is what is inside of us.

However that worthless metal can be melted and is used by Him.

2/8/11 4:47 PM
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dabigchet
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are you trolling me?
2/8/11 5:05 PM
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colubrid1
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You are completly deprasved yet you are on a spritual forum. Who is trolling who?
2/8/11 9:43 PM
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Grakman
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Sliced - 
Grakman - 
Sliced - The god of the OT is a monster. I wouldn't want to be in heaven with that guy anyway.

 What kind of God would you like?


I don't want one. But if I had to choose, I'd pick one that doesn't order genocide. I think Odin would be cool. Or maybe Venus. That chick was foine.

 You ok with human sacrifice?
2/9/11 12:05 AM
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Sliced
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Of course! /sarcasm
2/9/11 11:48 AM
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gord96
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are you a Calvinist colubrid1?
2/9/11 3:11 PM
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Grakman
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Sliced - Of course! /sarcasm

 If you're not a fan of human sacrifice, might want to reconsider Odin. Don't know about Venus other than she was supposed to be 'foine'. ;)
2/9/11 8:12 PM
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Sliced
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Yeah, I read that after you said that about the human sacrifice. I was just goofing around lol

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