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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> TPTK out of position


1/4/11 3:25 PM
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andre
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Yesterday I played in a live tournament with a $40k guarantee.

I had an early triple up when I made broadway against a set of kings and two pair, so I was sitting pretty comfortably with 30K in chips when the avg stack was around 11K.

Then I was dealt AK. I was UTG+2 and raised to 4 times the BB. The raise was bigger than my usual raise, but I wanted to discourage action since I was out of position, and the blinds were still small enough that I felt I'd get too much interest with anything smaller.

MP called, everyone else folded. The flop came K-2-3 rainbow. I bet a little more than half the pot and he called, the turn was a 7. I bet the size of the pot and he called again. The river was an 8. I checked with the intent of calling (my thinking was that I wanted him to bluff if he had been floating, and I wanted to keep from being raised if he was holding a monster). He overbet the pot and I was faced with a decision to call for about 4K in chips with a pot of about $2800. The player was an older guy, a regular, and I knew him to be fairly tight, but to fall in love with top pair, medium kicker hands (there is a history with him from my last tournament...though I wasnt in the hand).

I had a hard time putting him on anything but a smaller king or possibly an underpair like TT or JJ that he thinks is good because Ive missed, so I called and he turned over a set of dueces.

I'm convinced I misplayed this hand, but I could use help on knowing how I might have done so. Could you have laid it down?

Not long after that I found myself in a similar situation. The guy to my left was a bit drunk and I open raised with AK and he called. The flop came K-8-8. I checked, he bet, I raised, and he called. The turn was a rag, I checked, he bet, I called. I was trying to keep the pot as small as I could in case he had the 8, and I think it worked, but perhaps I should have given him credit for the 8.

Of course, he turned over 8-7s.
1/5/11 9:43 AM
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joe canada
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1st hand -- depending on your frequency of continuation bets, consider checking either the flop or the turn.

If you consistently cont bet, you pretty much have to bet the flop, or it's glaringly obvious you hit the flop. If you're not cont betting all that much, you can check the flop.

Either way, a flop or turn check helps you keep the pot to a size commensurate with your hand.

With your bet bet line, a blocker bet lets you get away from the hand if he river raises you. Takes some large testamacles (my new favourite word) to call the out of position pre-flop raiser twice just to bluff the river. No real draws out there. What's he got?

Keep the pot small(er) with that hand.

Also, 10's or J's likely don't bet that river on that line. A river bet there is either air or a bluff. What can you be playing with there that you preflop raise and fire two bullets at but can still call the river? A bet here makes no sense unless he is bluffing or has a much bigger handthan TT.

You're no good on the river.

Hand two -- you built a hand into a paired rag board out of position after raising preflop. Unless you have a rep for very strong calls (or idiocy), any semi-agressive player takes that hand away from you as a matter of course. You VERY likely don't have an 8 and most people aren't fans of getting a lot in in your position.

Your check-raise? Meh. Unless you're raising a LOT of preflop hands, the odds you hit that 8 are tiny. So the only hand he's worried about is KK. Your check-raise actually allows him to bluff more convincingly, as he can call in position and then jam the turn. Or, as in this case, he can have it.

I know it's weak, but I don't get into pissing matches in that situation. I flopped a hand that isn't that strong on it's own (Top Top) into a situation that will force me to commit all my chips in the dark if I don't want to be run over.

My point of view? I missed that flop and I play it like I missed it.
1/5/11 9:48 AM
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joe canada
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caveat -- I know a lot of players will tell me the odds are against the villain having the 8 and that I should defend my hand. There is merit in that argument. I fold a small pot anyway
1/5/11 3:58 PM
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stillmatic
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The board is pretty dry for AK on the first hand, so betting TPTK all the way through makes the most sense. Check/call on the river is pretty bad, the likelihood of getting bluffed here is pretty low and the hands you beat like a PP or a weaker king are probably checking behind. You miss value from the hands you beat and pay off the ones you don't.

I don't see the need to raise 4 X BB if that's not your normal raise. That's pretty much broadcasting that you have a hand like AK, because most people play Ak that way since they don't know what to do with it post-flop.

Your choice of bet sizes is a bit weird. I'm not sure why you're betting half the pot on the flop and then betting the entire pot on the turn, that's not really controlling pot size. I'm not sure what the reasoning for the bet sizes is.

As for the second hand, just bet the flop. Your opponent probably has nothing on this kind of board. Checking it is fishy and while it may lead to your opponent taking a stab at the pot, you also want to be picking up these pots when you have nothing yourself, so betting is a good thing. Your opponent might play back at you anyways thinking you have nothing when you bet.

For your future hands, you should stop posting the results. Give as much detail as possible and leave out the results. The results of a hand messes with people's thought process for a hand. I also find you tend to post bad beat hands where you have good hands that get cracked by better ones. This happens to all of us and personally I don't think you're going to learn much from posting these types of hands, because every hand just ends up being whether you can get away from a big hand. Most of the time, the answer is going to be no as you want to extract value for the big hands, not be thinking how to lose as little as possible with them.
1/5/11 4:17 PM
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andre
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Great posts, guys! Both were very helpful. Stillmatic, your post in particular is exactly what I needed. THanks so much!

My bet size was bad. I bet half because I was heads up and I expected a fold so I thought I'd get some value from weaker hands if I make a weak bet. Once he called the flop bet, I bet the pot for value and because it is probably the bet I'd make if I were firing two barrels on a bluff.
1/6/11 11:51 AM
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andre
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TitoOrtiz5 - First hand I check it all the way down to the river and fold if he bets on any street.



I appreciate the input, and please do not take any offense, but I'm pretty sure that's the worst way to play AK on that board.
1/6/11 12:02 PM
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andre
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By the way, after thinking about this quite a bit, here is what I've come up with. Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of these:

1) I'm not too uncomfortable with my preflop raise. I realize that a larger raise can really pin down my range, but it was still early enough where the blinds were so small that 4X was really something you would do with a pretty broad range. But generally, I agree that an out-of-the-ordinary bet from EP pretty much lays out what Im holding (or trying to represent) and that it's probably not a good idea even when the blinds are small compared to the stacks. Better to stay within the 2.5-3X range (although I will say that live tends to involve larger preflop bets than online).

2) I'm not sure that betting 1/2 the pot was much worse than betting 3/4-the pot, but if I was ahead I would be missing out on at least 1/4 of value so I can see how it makes sense to standardize my value bets. I certainly didnt think I was beaten at that point. My bet on the turn was right, I think. I felt I was ahead at that point, but when he called a second time I began to worry a bit.

3) I think I should have bet the river instead of checking it, and folded to a reraise. When I checked it, I created some uncertainty regarding his last bet. Had I bet it and he went over the top, I would be pretty sure I was behind.

4) My biggest mistake is that it was too early to be committing so much of my stack with AK. At 20-30 blinds I would be happy to get my stack in with AK, especially on either board against one player, but at this stage, when I had already tripled up and blinds were so small, I should have played more conservatively.
1/6/11 11:36 PM
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wreckker
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Raise 3 times blind

bet 60% of pot on flop

stall..... and check the turn...

if he bets turn stalll again and appear to cry call

repeat again at the river


I dont  do too much acting when playing but this is the type of situation to do it in.

You are either way ahead or way behind

That board is very dry which mean chance of him having set goes up

or if he has weaker K and you sell it well he will probably still bet.

If he has a set and you barely want to call he probably wont even put you on a AK more like weak K or

underpair ...so his bet size wont be that big.

Betting pot on turn is big mistake you made,  that made him think you had ak or aa a hand that would payoff his big overbet.

Also why would he overbet the pot with JJ or 1010?  that makes no sense

His over bet screamed set becuase of how YOU played the hand.

If you take the line I outlined above you save alot of chips when he has a set

Induce him to bluff if he has air

make about the same if he has a K maybe less


Dont push small edges in tournies early


Biggest mistake by far I have made in 15 years was betting near pot on turn at wsop final table...

lesson learned!

control pot size with mid strength type hands unless you know strongly you are ahead










 

1/7/11 2:44 AM
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andre
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Wreckker! That is awesome advice!!! Thanks!!!
1/7/11 10:07 AM
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SiftMyMind
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andre - 

Then I was dealt AK. I was UTG+2 and raised to 4 times the BB. The raise was bigger than my usual raise, but I wanted to discourage action since I was out of position, and the blinds were still small enough that I felt I'd get too much interest with anything smaller.

MP called, everyone else folded. The flop came K-2-3 rainbow. I bet a little more than half the pot and he called, the turn was a 7. I bet the size of the pot and he called again. The river was an 8. I checked with the intent of calling (my thinking was that I wanted him to bluff if he had been floating, and I wanted to keep from being raised if he was holding a monster). He overbet the pot and I was faced with a decision to call for about 4K in chips with a pot of about $2800. The player was an older guy, a regular, and I knew him to be fairly tight, but to fall in love with top pair, medium kicker hands (there is a history with him from my last tournament...though I wasnt in the hand).

I had a hard time putting him on anything but a smaller king or possibly an underpair like TT or JJ that he thinks is good because Ive missed, so I called and he turned over a set of dueces.

I'm convinced I misplayed this hand, but I could use help on knowing how I might have done so. Could you have laid it down?



The issue seems to be as follows:

'What about the betting patterns would indicate that he had a set?'
1/7/11 12:00 PM
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andre
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SiftMyMind - 
andre - 

Then I was dealt AK. I was UTG+2 and raised to 4 times the BB. The raise was bigger than my usual raise, but I wanted to discourage action since I was out of position, and the blinds were still small enough that I felt I'd get too much interest with anything smaller.

MP called, everyone else folded. The flop came K-2-3 rainbow. I bet a little more than half the pot and he called, the turn was a 7. I bet the size of the pot and he called again. The river was an 8. I checked with the intent of calling (my thinking was that I wanted him to bluff if he had been floating, and I wanted to keep from being raised if he was holding a monster). He overbet the pot and I was faced with a decision to call for about 4K in chips with a pot of about $2800. The player was an older guy, a regular, and I knew him to be fairly tight, but to fall in love with top pair, medium kicker hands (there is a history with him from my last tournament...though I wasnt in the hand).

I had a hard time putting him on anything but a smaller king or possibly an underpair like TT or JJ that he thinks is good because Ive missed, so I called and he turned over a set of dueces.

I'm convinced I misplayed this hand, but I could use help on knowing how I might have done so. Could you have laid it down?



The issue seems to be as follows:

'What about the betting patterns would indicate that he had a set?'



In hindsight it is easy to see how strong he was. It is difficult in the moment to put someone on pocket dueces or threes, although we were deep stacked enough that I should have considered it a possibility. My problem was that I didnt expect him to call a 4X bet with a pair that small, out of position. That was my mistake for attributing play to him according to the way I would probably play a small pair in that spot (fold preflop). But, as I said, the stacks were deep enough that I think he can safely set mine.
1/9/11 11:26 PM
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joe canada
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I'm going to make my earlier post more digestable, cuz I realize I do tend to ramble:

When you flopped your hand, did you want to get 6K of your money in? Why did you?

Controlling pot size is HUGE.
1/9/11 11:47 PM
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PR
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Edited: 01/09/11 11:54 PM
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What are the blinds in the first hand? I assume there's no antes yet, but tell us if there is or is not.

You are still leaving out absolutely essential information from your hand posts andre. Every tourney hand posts should include:

1 tourney buy-in
2 number of players left
3 when the money is (ie. top 30 get paid)
4 all relevant stack sizes (your and opponents)
5 blinds and ante sizes
6 all reads on everyone int he hand
7 all accurate sizes of bet/raises
8 your hand with suits (even if they dont matter you think)
9 the exact accurate board in order with accurate suits.

As soon a you are missing any of the above, it taints the analysis.

But most importantly:

STOP POSTING THE RESULTS OF THE HANDS YOU ARE ASKING ADVICE ON

STOP STOP STOP.

You need to stop the hand at the exact decision point that you are wondering about. If it's on the flop, you do not tell us anything about the hand that happened after the decision point.

Thank god we have some experienced players that can ignore the results you post and give you very good advice.

You should be thankful, because if they are like me, you wouldn't get advice for hands you include results for.
1/9/11 11:55 PM
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PR
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andre -  The flop came K-8-8. I checked, he bet, I raised, and he called. The turn was a rag, I checked, he bet, I called. I was trying to keep the pot as small as I could in case he had the 8, and I think it worked, but perhaps I should have given him credit for the 8.

Of course, he turned over 8-7s.


This is inconsistent. Why were you inflating the pot on the flop, and then deciding to pot control on the turn?

The thing is, you can always choose to inflate a pot AFTER keeping it small, but you can never keep it small after inflating it.
1/10/11 12:13 AM
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andre
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PR - 
andre -  The flop came K-8-8. I checked, he bet, I raised, and he called. The turn was a rag, I checked, he bet, I called. I was trying to keep the pot as small as I could in case he had the 8, and I think it worked, but perhaps I should have given him credit for the 8.

Of course, he turned over 8-7s.


This is inconsistent. Why were you inflating the pot on the flop, and then deciding to pot control on the turn?

The thing is, you can always choose to inflate a pot AFTER keeping it small, but you can never keep it small after inflating it.


With AK and a K high flop, I was fairly sure I had the best hand and wanted to build a pot. But when he called my raise, I decided to play more cautiously in case he had an 8. I thought my hand was too good to fold to his bets, but I also didnt want to further inflate the pot with only top pair when trips were possible.

I get what you are saying, but on a flop like that, wouldnt you assume you had the best hand on the flop, until there is a reason to not think you had the best hand (like his calling my checkraise)?
1/10/11 12:29 AM
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joe canada
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"on a flop like that, wouldnt you assume you had the best hand on the flop, until there is a reason to not think you had the best hand"

I, personally, would assume I am on a hand in which any call for any money beats me, or builds a pot to steal from me. And I would be right.
1/10/11 12:43 AM
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andre
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joe canada - "on a flop like that, wouldnt you assume you had the best hand on the flop, until there is a reason to not think you had the best hand"

I, personally, would assume I am on a hand in which any call for any money beats me, or builds a pot to steal from me. And I would be right.


Does that mean you agree with my statement?
1/10/11 1:38 AM
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PR
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Andre you are making a fundamental error. Think about the Fundamental Theorem of Poker and how that applies here.

What you are doing with a line of : check-raise the flop, check the turn is THE opposite of what you want to do.

If he is bluffing the flop when you check, you are shutting the door by raising... you are telling him hey I have a hand, and making him fold his bluffs.

But once he calls and then you check the turn, you are essentially giving up good positioning. You are letting him take top mount.

So you are letting him get away cheap with worse but he can still put money in the pot because he has position. So he can bet if he thinks he has the best hand.

A very important question to ask yourself, if AS SOON AS THE FLOPS COMES, think about the flop, your hand and relative hands strength, look at stack sizes and decide right then if you are playing this cautiously, or happy getting all-in.

I'm glad you posted this hand because it encapsulates the issues with your game and overall tournament strategy.
1/10/11 12:39 PM
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andre
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PR,

Thanks again for the response. Please take the rest of my post as an effort to better understand, not as an argument, because I'm done insisting I'm right and now I just want to improve.

Let me work backward in your post because I think it is the only way I'll properly understand.

"A very important question to ask yourself, if AS SOON AS THE FLOPS COMES, think about the flop, your hand and relative hands strength, look at stack sizes and decide right then if you are playing this cautiously, or happy getting all-in."

K-3-2 rainbow is about as dry a board as I can ever hope for, so is K-8-8, imo. Surely I believed I had the best hand on the flop, but let me explain my thinking:

In both cases, against one player, there are two options since the board is so dry: I'm either way ahead or way behind. If I'm way ahead, then a pot sized bet should drive him away in both cases. If I'm way behind then a pot sized bet only inflates a pot I'm unlikely to win. Now in most cases, on those boards, I'd think I'm way ahead, so my check raise was to draw some value from a hand in which I assumed my opponent had missed completely. I also felt that check calling would be just as strong as check raising so I was unlikely to get anymore value with a check call so I might as well check raise and end the hand.

If I understand you correctly, I have to decide, on the flop, whether or not I'm willing to get it all in? Even when we are well over 100BBs deep?
1/10/11 1:49 PM
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joe canada
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Andre:

I think you're misunderstanding the way ahead or way behind concept.

Way ahead/way behind is mainly referenced in terms of whether or not to give a free card, not as whether or not to build a pot. There's a suble difference at play here.

Big hand or small hand = big pot or small pot.

Way ahead/way behind = you can (and likely should) give a free card

You have a small hand, which should generally lead you to want to play a small pot.

You are in a way ahead/way behind situation, which allows you to give a free card.

These two concepts, applied in concert, suggest you should check to keep the pot small and not worry about him catching up with the free card if you're ahead.

You, on the other hand, take a line that merely ups the stakes.

"Way ahead/way behind" doesn't mean get money in. "Way ahead/likely way ahead" means get money in.



I'll explain using your words on the paired board hand:

"If I'm way ahead, then a pot sized bet should drive him away (...) If I'm way behind then a pot sized bet only inflates a pot I'm unlikely to win."

Ok. If you're way ahead and he has nothing, you do actually increase your chance to make money. IF(!!!) he bluffs. And that's if he only bluffs once and folds. What if he re-steals by shoving? Do you call your AK with a paired 8 on board?

If you're way behind, you've now build a VERY large pot with your check-raise, because he will very likely bet his winner in this spot.

See, if he has nothing, you (maybe) induce a bluff of, say, 1/2 the pot. Which you may take down with your checkraise. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he ALWAYS bluffs and NEVER rebluffs.

If he has the hand, he bets the same 1/2 pot, and you come over with, what, conservatively 3 times his bet?

So you lose 3 times as much when he has the hand as you win when he doesn't. Let's call these betting units 'bets' and you've put in 3 bets bad for every time he puts in one bet bad.

(Of course, the villain won't bluff 100% of the time, your 3:1 losing ratio now looks more like 3:0.5 (or 6:1), but let's forget that for now)

And what do you do when he calls your check-raise? You check the turn, right?

So now he bets. You fold? Not you, you call, because you rightly assume that most players are capable of firing more than one bullet. So, what? Another 1/2 pot or so bet? Which is likely about 4x the size of his initial 'bluff' flop bet. So four bets.

So now you've gotten 7 (likely more) 'bets' of your money in inducing that one 'bluff' bet which might not turn out to have been a bluff after all.

Are you convinced yet that he might have a hand? Because here comes the river, and any bet here is going to be at LEAST 7 bets worth.



You're building a pot when you're in a way behind/way ahead situation. Don't do that. Build a pot when you're in a way ahead/likely way ahead situation.
1/10/11 1:54 PM
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joe canada
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On a side note: explain your reasoning for the following, please:

You're way behind/way ahead on the flop. You let him bluff, then check-raise him.

Here are my questions:

If you think he can't call, why are you check-raising instead of check-calling? Would you not want to induce another bluff on the turn? Or if you're concerned you're behind, why not check/call instead of building a pot.

Seems like, in a way ahead/way behind situation, if he had no hand your raise sucked. And if he had a made hand, your raise sucked.
1/10/11 2:52 PM
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PR
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Yes andre you are misapplying the WA/WB concept.
1/10/11 4:15 PM
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joe canada
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Sigh.

I wish I were as succinct as PR. THEN maybe you'd listen to me ;)
1/10/11 4:29 PM
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andre
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I listen to everything you write, Joe, and I appreciate it.

It may seem like I'm arguing, but I'm just trying to seek understanding. I have argued in the past and was duly reproached for it. I'll try to avoid it in the future.

I posted the first hand on 2+2, without the results, and the advice was to bet all the way through.

So, without a cryptic response, and assuming, if you can, that you dont know the results, please tell me how you would play the hand.

I realize that way ahead/way behind, as a theory, has a specific application (free card), but I'm simply stating what I thought was obvious on that board--in the absence of draws, I am either way ahead of his AX, underpair, or way behind a set or AA.

"These two concepts, applied in concert, suggest you should check to keep the pot small and not worry about him catching up with the free card if you're ahead."

I feel like I am getting contradicting advice. PR said to decide, from the flop and table dynamics, whether or not Im willing to get it all in. I would assume that most people with AK would say, "Yes" they want it all in on either flop against one player. If so, why wouldnt I bet until he gives me reason not to? You really check down AK with a K high flop?

Not arguing...:) Seriously. Im posting with a smile and totally open to the possibility that Im wrong, but please tell me how you would play it...and I dont think trying to keep the pot small on the flop is correct, but perhaps Im wrong.
1/10/11 4:31 PM
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andre
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wreckker - 



You are either way ahead or way behind





 




When he says it, it's correct. When I say it...

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