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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> TPTK out of position


1/10/11 4:32 PM
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andre
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wreckker - 

Raise 3 times blind

bet 60% of pot on flop

stall..... and check the turn...

if he bets turn stalll again and appear to cry call

repeat again at the river


I dont  do too much acting when playing but this is the type of situation to do it in.

You are either way ahead or way behind

That board is very dry which mean chance of him having set goes up

or if he has weaker K and you sell it well he will probably still bet.

If he has a set and you barely want to call he probably wont even put you on a AK more like weak K or

underpair ...so his bet size wont be that big.

Betting pot on turn is big mistake you made,  that made him think you had ak or aa a hand that would payoff his big overbet.

Also why would he overbet the pot with JJ or 1010?  that makes no sense

His over bet screamed set becuase of how YOU played the hand.

If you take the line I outlined above you save alot of chips when he has a set

Induce him to bluff if he has air

make about the same if he has a K maybe less


Dont push small edges in tournies early


Biggest mistake by far I have made in 15 years was betting near pot on turn at wsop final table...

lesson learned!

control pot size with mid strength type hands unless you know strongly you are ahead










 



This is the approach that makes the most sense to me, though Im not sure if that's what everyone else is advocating.
1/10/11 5:44 PM
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stillmatic
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andre - I listen to everything you write, Joe, and I appreciate it.

It may seem like I'm arguing, but I'm just trying to seek understanding. I have argued in the past and was duly reproached for it. I'll try to avoid it in the future.

I posted the first hand on 2+2, without the results, and the advice was to bet all the way through.

So, without a cryptic response, and assuming, if you can, that you dont know the results, please tell me how you would play the hand.

I realize that way ahead/way behind, as a theory, has a specific application (free card), but I'm simply stating what I thought was obvious on that board--in the absence of draws, I am either way ahead of his AX, underpair, or way behind a set or AA.

"These two concepts, applied in concert, suggest you should check to keep the pot small and not worry about him catching up with the free card if you're ahead."

I feel like I am getting contradicting advice. PR said to decide, from the flop and table dynamics, whether or not Im willing to get it all in. I would assume that most people with AK would say, "Yes" they want it all in on either flop against one player. If so, why wouldnt I bet until he gives me reason not to? You really check down AK with a K high flop?

Not arguing...:) Seriously. Im posting with a smile and totally open to the possibility that Im wrong, but please tell me how you would play it...and I dont think trying to keep the pot small on the flop is correct, but perhaps Im wrong.


Hand #1

I already stated I bet the hand throughout. I would have probably bet around 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot on both flop and turn and probably something around 60% of the pot on the river. When I'm called on the flop, I would guess my opponent has something like a small pair or weaker king. When I'm called on the turn, I would assume probably the same thing with the likelihood being a weaker king. The river, I bet again for value thinking I'm good a majority of the time if called. If I get raised, then it would come down to my read on the opponent, size of raise, how many chips I have left and etc to determine whether I call or fold.

Hand #2

What you aren't understanding about the way ahead or way behind concept is that you're not getting value out of trapping your opponent in those situations. Your C/R on the K88 flop is an attempt at a trap. You should only be trapping when you think there is a very high chance your opponent has a strong hand thus making it likely for you to maximize value by playing a hand slow. In these instances, when your opponent doesn't have anything, they likely give up and don't put another chip in the pot.

With AK on a K88 board, you more or less have a made hand right there already. It's similar to your decision with a hand like JJ pre-flop and whether you want to shove all-in before the flop or play it more cautiously and see a flop. This would depend on factors such as chip sizes, opponent's hand range, reads and etc. Given that you have 100 big blinds to work with and your opponent floating on you means an 8 is in their hand range, playing the hand with some caution makes sense and I don't think you want to be shoving with your hand. The hands that can potentially pay you off aren't incredibly strong, so you shouldn't expect to be able to extract a ton of value and likewise you don't want to play a huge pot on this kind of board because it likely means a monster for your opponent.







1/10/11 6:10 PM
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andre
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That makes a lot of sense, stillmatic. Thank you.
1/10/11 7:15 PM
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stillmatic
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I made a mistake earlier in stating you could slowplay to extract value out of a strong hand. Pretty much had a momentary lapse in saying something dumb like that. I should clarify that I rarely choose to slowplay a hand. A situation where I may do it is if I had KK on the K88 board or something like that where the only value I get out of the hand is probably in allowing my opponent to improve or bluff.

1/10/11 9:36 PM
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JHR
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Edited: 01/10/11 9:38 PM
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 Not to hi-jack the thread, but can I just say how great it is to have this forum here and have some guys here helping each other out in our "virtual sweat session"

It's times like now, when I'm running shitty that I like to come here, and read read read...Not only does it get my head back on track, it makes me appreciate having you jerkoffs around lol

Reggie, PR, Joe C, Stillmatic and Andre,

Beer's on me if you ever make it to my neck of the woods for a game!
 
1/10/11 9:40 PM
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wreckker
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 Tournament play is much different than cash game play.

Betting the pot all the way with AK on that board is not always right line to take early in tourney especially.

Although you may lose some value checking the turn you dont pot commit yourslef like a turn bet does.

When the board is that dry like hand 1 the only hand that can call all three streets you beat is weaker K which happens alot...but chance of him hitting a set with no draws out is much higher too.

Dont push small edges early if at all in tournies unless you have too.
1/10/11 9:53 PM
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stillmatic
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wreckker -  Tournament play is much different than cash game play.

Betting the pot all the way with AK on that board is not always right line to take early in tourney especially.

Although you may lose some value checking the turn you dont pot commit yourslef like a turn bet does.

When the board is that dry like hand 1 the only hand that can call all three streets you beat is weaker K which happens alot...but chance of him hitting a set with no draws out is much higher too.

Dont push small edges early if at all in tournies unless you have too.


I don't play many tournaments, but I think betting AK on all 3 streets is fine provided your controlling the pot size. I prefer betting in the 2/3 of the pot range for the most part. I'm certainly not willing to play a huge pot with just TPTK when I have 100 big blinds to work with.

I can see the reasoning behind the bet-c/c-c/c line, which is better than bet-bet-c/c, but I think betting all the way through works just fine as well.
1/11/11 2:01 AM
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joe canada
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Andre:

I know you listen, I'm just mocking myself for the volumes I write.

Here's how I play the second hand, since you asked (and since it's only fair):

Given the player next to me is a bit drunk, and in the absence of more information, I'm going to assume he's not a high-level player. I'm also playing with the understanding that the blinds are, as you speak, very small. I'm also going to assume you've been playing the TAG style you've been describing in other posts, and that you haven't been really out of line. Will also assume the drunk hasn't been putting an inordinate amount of pressure on the table, nor spewing his chips, as you'd have mentioned it.

Short form:

I check to the river (if I can) and then value bet it, folding to any significant pressure along the way.

Long form:

Hero open-raises AK
Drunk calls. Folds around.

Flop K-8-8

Hero: Check
if Drunk bets (reasonably), I call

Turn Rag

If Drunk bet the flop:
Hero bets the turn (will explain later)
If drunk raises, Hero folds
If drunk calls, Hero checks the river and river folds to any reasonable bet.

If Drunk checked the flop:
Hero checks the turn
If drunk bets, hero calls and bets river (will explain later)
If drunk checks, Hero value bets the river in the hopes the Drunk caught a pair and puts Hero stealing on a missed A because of the pre-raise, check check line.

(Not many drunk, middling players have the patience to check/check trips in position in a tournament, if he does, he can have my river bet, and I'm even likely to pay a reasonable raise -- God bless him, I still got out relatively cheaply)

The logic behind the check/call and then lead on the turn (or river, same logic applies):

A decent player will assume your open raise didn't include an 8, so it's a good spot to bluff, as you've noted. But calling and then leading out accomplishes the same as a check-raise, but somewhat more elegantly. It defends my hand against bluffs, but does so closer to the end (ie: one betting round later, which leads to a smaller pot). It's the same money, but later in the hand, so he has one less street to build on it, if you follow.

Plus, it can look weird and trappy to someone who doesn't study the game (it's an old move that Chan liked, IIRC). Looking weird and trappy when out of position is an asset in a lot of spots.

If he calls the turn lead, I am pretty much done with the hand. He would have to bet a tiny fraction of the pot to induce a river call from me, which in any event would let me keep the pot small. If he has a hand without an 8 (J's for example), he'll likely put me on something and either fold the turn or pay the lead but check behind me when I river bet.

Not many made non-8 hands call the "flop check/call and then turn lead" and bet the river. To take that line, I'm assuming you either have an 8 or you're bluffing (or you turned a boat, you BASTARD! lol!)


Obviously, this not the line I would ALWAYS take, but it protects my stack while allowing me to play the hand somewhat tricky, which I prefer to do with my middling hands rather than my monsters anyway.

Would love to hear how and why other players disagree with this approach, as I'm sure some do.

I understand the three-barrel approach. I'm a better cash player than tournament player, and I can see how in a tournament you might think you simply have to say "screw it, if he has it, he has it" and fire away. But for me, I don't want a big pot in a situation where:

a) I can easily be way behind AND
b) I can easily be bluffed by someone paying attention

Those two factors, taken in tandem, lead to my guessing, rather than deducing, whether I'm good or not. Not a big fan of guessing for a good chunk of my tournament life (or cash, for that matter)

OK, that's a lot of typing. I will learn one day how to be succinct, I promise.
1/11/11 2:03 AM
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PR
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bet-check-bet is a good line as well stillmatic on that board.

However, andre said the guy is drunk, and its a live tourney so chances are he's terrible, so bet-bet-bet is probably the best.
1/11/11 2:04 AM
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joe canada
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Clarification of: "Obviously, this not the line I would ALWAYS take, but it protects my stack while allowing me to play the hand somewhat tricky, which I prefer to do with my middling hands rather than my monsters anyway."

Occasionally you have to be seen to be able to deep check top pair. This is a great spot to show down that hand on a small pot so that people don't assume your checks automatically mean a weak/stealable hand.
1/12/11 4:16 AM
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PR
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I think its a better spot to win chips joe.
1/12/11 12:20 PM
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andre
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PR,

I think I understand that I am being results oriented because he actually had a set, but do you ever slow down in that case or with a board running out the way it did (and your opponent is calling you down)? In cash I can see myself happily getting it all in, but if you're in a tournament do you take the same line?

One of the justifications I used for calling his river bet was the fact that I had 3X the avg chip stack. I figured that I was still in great shape if I was wrong, but it still left me uncomfortable in that I couldnt put him on too many hands that would call down two streets and then make a big bet. Big hand or air, I guess.
1/12/11 4:15 PM
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wreckker
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 You gotta realize in hand 1 the guy puts you on a good king most likely betting 3 barrels into him..

And he still makes a big ,move on the river... very few players are going to float all the way when its obvious you have good hand betting into him.

You have to give him credit for big hand vast majority of time


Big adavantage to playing live to is you get to see how people physically react.

When the flop hits I always look at my opponet  for info....

when I get chips to bet i like to look at my opponet too

There is a good chance when he flopped a set  he gave something away...big tell of big hand is immediate glance down to his own chip stack..

1/12/11 4:31 PM
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andre
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Wreckker,

I ignored the tells. I really did. In hindsight, I can see how the alarms should have been ringing in my head (they were, actually, but I ignored them and believed what I wanted to believe). I'm not saying that because of the board or the betting, but this older gentleman (the villain) was a really outgoing, fun guy who usually joked throughout a hand. However, in this one he suddenly became very quiet and serious. I should have known he was holding something big because normally he's the type to joke (perhaps for information to see if he's good), and now he was acting a bit out of character. While it isnt conclusive evidence, it should have added to the picture and yet I ignored it.
1/12/11 9:44 PM
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joe canada
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PR: yeah, I know where you're coming from, and as I said earlier, I am likely taking a too conservative line.

But I don't like getting a whole lot of chips in in a situation where only an idiot or someone who beats me can pay me.

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