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HolyGround >> The Eye of a Needle Parable


2/7/11 5:32 PM
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Hypnos
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In regards to Matthew 19:24

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

It seems some people think Jesus was referring to the city gates of Jerusalem as the eye of the needle because camels had to crouch down low to get through the gate. Other people say Jesus is referring to an actual eye of a needle.

I'm no theologian but I feel Jesus is referring to the eye of a actual needle... not the city gates. Also, if the eye of the needle is really referring to the city gates and people had to get their camels to crouch down to get through then that would mean some were able to get the camel through the gate. But doesn't that take away from Matthew 19:26..

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

Man getting their camels down low enough to get through the gates would mean that is is possible with man.

Thoughts???
2/7/11 6:14 PM
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Grakman
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My .02.

Even to this day, the culture of the Middle East is rich with hyperbole and exaggeration. Either way you read the story, the point is that rich people focus more on themselves and riches, rather than God, and so it is difficult for them to find the Way. 

I think sometimes we try to read too much of a literal meaning into the words of the Bible, rather than looking at what they're trying to say in a spiritual, story-telling sense. We want it to read like a literal fact-telling document like a legal paper being submitted for court, but to me it seems like we're demanding things from the text that aren't there.

 

2/7/11 6:21 PM
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Hypnos
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I agree with you Grackman. I know the focus should be on what Jesus is telling us. I just hear this come up every now and then so wanted to gather other opinions. Phone Post
2/7/11 6:33 PM
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Grakman
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What do you think Hypnos? Would one interpretation or the other cause a crisis of faith or bring you to doubt or anything like that?
2/7/11 6:45 PM
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Hypnos
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For me no. My faith is strong and my knowledge is weak, but its coming along. I just stay in the Bible consistantly and pray that God speaks to me through his Word.
2/8/11 1:52 PM
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colubrid1
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I think it means exactly what it says. The EYE OF A NEEDLE.

Hypnos, The more you read and learn about God. The more you realize how narrow the gates are. God is the same yesterday , today and tommorow. His wrath came upon us because of the very things that are evident in the churches today.

Also notice that most of the bible talks about his wrath. Most preacher/teachers/pastors only want to tell people about His love.They tickle their ears with what they want to hear. They are afraid to teach on His wrath because most of the congragation would leave.

That, and I think most pastor/preacher/teachers are not saved themselves!

Just look at Joel Osteen. He never opens a bible when he preaches. Most people don't even know what it says. they depend on a preacher to tell them.
2/8/11 3:03 PM
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Hypnos
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colubrid1 -

I've definatley realized the wrath of God the more I read for myself. I was one of those Christians that believed, went to church every now and then, never read the Bible and prayed when I was going through hard times. I remember hearing that roughly 90% of church goers don't read the Bible for themselves and just rely on what they hear from their pastor which can be very dangerous.

Until recently I have been in the Bible daily really searching and wanting to know God more and more. I found a good Bible teaching church and supplement that by watching Mark Driscolls sermons online. I know you either love or hate the guy, but for me he's been very helpful. Just as you were saying that most pastors don't talk about the wrath of God. Driscoll had a recent sermon about Heaven and Hell which really hit home about Gods wrath. Here is a quick blip of that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxCKxxRU_s8

2/8/11 3:59 PM
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colubrid1
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I have viewed his videos before and i like Driscolls.

I am currently in a church where the pastor was an orthodox Hew. He was exhiled from israel for converting and has wanted posters out for him. Hebrew was his first language.I tell you nothing compares to understanding gods word than through a true orthodox jewish convert....not a messianic jew...because there really is no such thing.

2/8/11 4:20 PM
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Hypnos
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Wanted posters? Wow!!! Thats extreme. So I'm assuming he is safe and sound in the states?
2/8/11 5:26 PM
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colubrid1
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Orthodox Jews don't care about gentiles much, or what we do. But they do care very much about each other. Even here in the states it is okay if you are out evengelizing and knock on a jewsih door and proclaim the gospel. they will listen. But if you are a jew and proclaim the gospel they get angry once they find out you are jewish..

Also with the way they do marriage in Israel. They don't date. Beforehand they only meet in public places. No holding hands, candlelit dinners etc. Those things are resereved for marriage. They know God looks at the heart regarding any form of adultery/fornication.

So they want God to honor their marriage. They don't marry outside of each other. That is also why the Jews were preserved after being spread out all over the world and still remain intact.

Also in the OT all those things about eating certain foods ect. God did that so they would not mingle and intermix through social interaction (ie sharing doifferent foods) and have 1/2 jewish children.

The jews are still intact and they reject the savior. They take this very seriously.
2/8/11 5:51 PM
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Hypnos
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I don't know much about orthodox Jews so this is interesting. A friend of mine was Jewish, although not a practicing Jew. He hung himself a few months ago and his funeral service was held in a Jewish church. I noticed there were no crosses, nothing to do with Jesus anywhere. The walls were plain and all they really had was the star of David on the walls. The pastor (not sure what the Jewish term would be) would talk in Hebrew half the time and English the other half. Everything he read was out of the old testament. After the service, when we were at the grave site he mentioned to put dirt on his casket for some reason, something about a final blessing. I can't remember why. Anyways, that was an experience. So Jews don't believe in the New Testament? Or believe that Jesus is the son of God sent here to die for our sins? is that why they still live by the Law? Doesn't it say throughout the New Testament that Jesus coming took care of the old law among other things? Phone Post
2/8/11 7:22 PM
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colubrid1
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We are te ingrfted banches. When the bible mention "greeks" it is speaking to us and everyone else except the Jews.

Romans Ch 2 it is speaking directly at the Jews.

Te Jew is condemened by Law:
17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,

19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

24For " THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.





2/8/11 9:33 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 02/08/11 9:35 PM
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  Why is he wanted? Is it against the law to convert from Judaism in Israel?
2/8/11 9:40 PM
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colubrid1
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it is for a real orthodox Jew.
2/8/11 9:41 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 02/08/11 9:41 PM
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colubrid1 - it is for a real orthodox Jew.

 Can you point me to a source? I didn't hit anything on Google. The only thing I've found is how much more difficult it is to BECOME Orthodox, not leave it.
 
2/8/11 11:24 PM
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colubrid1
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sorry I don't have a source except what he told me.
2/9/11 12:35 AM
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Ridgeback
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 As far as that passage goes, I always liked GK Chesterton's take on the subject:

It may be possible to have a good debate over whether or not Jesus believed in fairies. Alas, it is impossible to 
have any sort of debate over whether or not Jesus believed that rich people were in big trouble—there is too 
much evidence on the subject and it is overwhelming.
2/9/11 4:32 PM
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Grakman
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colubrid1 - sorry I don't have a source except what he told me.

 And you believed him?
2/9/11 5:17 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Grakman - 
colubrid1 - sorry I don't have a source except what he told me.

 And you believed him?


That's what I was thinking. Sounds like the ole "my hands are registered as deadly weapons" schtick.
2/9/11 6:30 PM
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Ridgeback
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Hypnos -  I don't know much about orthodox Jews so this is interesting. A friend of mine was Jewish, although not a practicing Jew. He hung himself a few months ago and his funeral service was held in a Jewish church. I noticed there were no crosses, nothing to do with Jesus anywhere. The walls were plain and all they really had was the star of David on the walls. The pastor (not sure what the Jewish term would be) would talk in Hebrew half the time and English the other half. Everything he read was out of the old testament. After the service, when we were at the grave site he mentioned to put dirt on his casket for some reason, something about a final blessing. I can't remember why. Anyways, that was an experience. So Jews don't believe in the New Testament? Or believe that Jesus is the son of God sent here to die for our sins? is that why they still live by the Law? Doesn't it say throughout the New Testament that Jesus coming took care of the old law among other things? Phone Post

 Yes some Jews do not see Jesus as the promised Messiah.  The ones who did became Christians.  The New Testament represents some of the written tradition of early Christianity, so no those Jews who reject Jesus would not include the NT in their scriptures.  

Many Jews believe in a resurrection, however, even though it can't be found in the OT that I know of.  It seems to be a belief that developed during the Babylonian captivity.  Jesus certainly signed off on the notion, but no one was expecting his resurrection from the dead as the first Christians claim happened.  That is part of what is so astonishing about Christianity that most people miss these days.
2/9/11 8:00 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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This parable was part of my new Christian clip:



They are real questions that I struggled with. The purpose of the clip was just put float those questions in the air. That's how they became relevant to me. Someone forced a concept upon my notice at one time or another that I would have never come up with on my own "because of my conditioning and rigidity".

Here is where my conscience is at with each.

Giving money to the homeless:

I do this quite often. I talk to them about their life, Christ and give them a few dollars I used to do it all the time about ten years ago but my ex-wife (whom I have a wonderful relationship with right now) was very discouraging about it. She and her parents fed me lots of conservative ideas about how they are just bums, will only buy booze, are lazy and are probably not Christians. So, under that pressure, I stopped interacting with them and giving them money.

Can a Christian be homosexual who has just given into temptation:

Of course. All sorts of corruption proceeds from the human heart. Homosexuality is just another form of corruption and rebellion. It would be difficult however to reconcile being a homosexual as a POLICY decision concurrent "with" their Christianity for their lifetime. It is definitely something they need to be saved from. However, I once believed that the presence of homosexuality in a person "proved" there was no possibility of regeneration. I have come to see that many people I know and interact with today feel that way now.

Winning 100 million and only keeping 1 or 2 million:

Even though the bible says "Your store houses will be overflowing", I was given very corrupt interpretations of what that meant. I was also taught that "God shows who he likes and blesses by what they have". Then I experienced what tremendous wealth was like. I have since been given a gift of understanding what the hoarding of wealth creates in the human heart. It distorts ones own perception of who one is before God and before man. It It's causes one to "sociologically" drop out and become an independent and superior entity. It creates deep numbness to the needs of others as one satiates every desire or whim... So, YES, I could give away the "majority" of my lottery winning when dealing with 10's of millions of dollars...

Crushing a child's spirit or being empathetic:

"Honor your mother and father" and "spare the rod spoil the child" have been misused as tools to systematically destroy the vitality of children's spirits as far back as the eye (and heart) can see... Those who have done this (me being one of them) lacked the understanding that EMPATHY is what a child needs most from a parent. But empathy requires that an adult be intimately familiar with the little childs heart and that takes time, commitment and emotional connectivity. That's a tall order for person who's parent crushed the life out of them as children". Seems that many have lived a lifetime thinkings that harshness is a far easier way to achieve well behaved child (that being the prize the parent can then show off using the child as a little ambassador.)

So, yes, empathy is of a high priority over the past 4 years or so. In greater degrees all the time. I'm still learning.

Demi
2/9/11 8:34 PM
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Grakman
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Ridgeback - 
Hypnos -  I don't know much about orthodox Jews so this is interesting. A friend of mine was Jewish, although not a practicing Jew. He hung himself a few months ago and his funeral service was held in a Jewish church. I noticed there were no crosses, nothing to do with Jesus anywhere. The walls were plain and all they really had was the star of David on the walls. The pastor (not sure what the Jewish term would be) would talk in Hebrew half the time and English the other half. Everything he read was out of the old testament. After the service, when we were at the grave site he mentioned to put dirt on his casket for some reason, something about a final blessing. I can't remember why. Anyways, that was an experience. So Jews don't believe in the New Testament? Or believe that Jesus is the son of God sent here to die for our sins? is that why they still live by the Law? Doesn't it say throughout the New Testament that Jesus coming took care of the old law among other things? Phone Post

 Yes some Jews do not see Jesus as the promised Messiah.  The ones who did became Christians.  The New Testament represents some of the written tradition of early Christianity, so no those Jews who reject Jesus would not include the NT in their scriptures.  

Many Jews believe in a resurrection, however, even though it can't be found in the OT that I know of.  It seems to be a belief that developed during the Babylonian captivity.  Jesus certainly signed off on the notion, but no one was expecting his resurrection from the dead as the first Christians claim happened.  That is part of what is so astonishing about Christianity that most people miss these days.
 
What's interesting is to note the difference between the way the early believers and apostles preached in the NT and how modern day believers witness. Today it is about changed lives, feelings, God's blessings whether healing or money, whereas in the NT they talked about the fact that a man they all knew had died and was buried WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND IS ALIVE.

They based their testimony on the fact that they had 'witnessed' (where else would we get the term?) the fact that this man dead from crucifixion was alive and had walked among them and ate and they had felt the wounds in his hands. They testified to having seen his miracles which was further evidence that he was who he claimed to be, which was sealed with his resurrection.
2/9/11 9:11 PM
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Hypnos
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That reminds me of a question I've had and no one has really been able to answer it. Now after Jesus rose from the dead and came back to live amongst the disciples in his new glorified body. My question is, why did Jesus still have the holes in his hands and pierced side even though he was now in the glorified body? My assumption is so he could show Thomas who wouldn't believe until he saw Jesus with his own eyes and placed Thomas hand in his side. Then maybe the wounds closed up after Thomas saw and believed. Phone Post
2/9/11 9:20 PM
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Grakman
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Hypnos -  That reminds me of a question I've had and no one has really been able to answer it. Now after Jesus rose from the dead and came back to live amongst the disciples in his new glorified body. My question is, why did Jesus still have the holes in his hands and pierced side even though he was now in the glorified body? My assumption is so he could show Thomas who wouldn't believe until he saw Jesus with his own eyes and placed Thomas hand in his side. Then maybe the wounds closed up after Thomas saw and believed. Phone Post
Here's another one for you...

Jesus is recorded as having eaten bread and fish with the disciples after his resurrection. Did his body process ALL that he ate, or did he have to eliminate the waste?
 
2/10/11 2:55 AM
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colubrid1
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"Crushing a child's spirit or being empathetic:

"Honor your mother and father" and "spare the rod spoil the child" have been misused as tools to systematically destroy the vitality of children's spirits as far back as the eye (and heart) can see... Those who have done this (me being one of them) lacked the understanding that EMPATHY is what a child needs most from a parent. But empathy requires that an adult be intimately familiar with the little childs heart and that takes time, commitment and emotional connectivity. That's a tall order for person who's parent crushed the life out of them as children". Seems that many have lived a lifetime thinkings that harshness is a far easier way to achieve well behaved child (that being the prize the parent can then show off using the child as a little ambassador.)

So, yes, empathy is of a high priority over the past 4 years or so. In greater degrees all the time. I'm still learning."


Actualy sxhasperating the child means after they grow up and you did not teech them the ways of the lord and His word.

A child must be taught when they disrespect us or they are not obedient,that it is God who they offend and not us. After all who are we?

We are just the ambassdors over their life to help guide and protect them. The child must learn it is a holy God who is offended and not derectly or indirectly us who are offended.

Raise a child up in the word. That is our duty as parents.

On a side not. And I hate to talk or even think about this because i am a single dad of a 7 year old daughter. There is nothing in scripture about an "age of accountability".That is just a churchy term... Matter of fact if babies all went to heaven when they died , that would make abortionists the good guys doing a righteoues thing.


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