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2/8/11 4:53 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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Ok, so I get killed in cash games.

I'm doing ok in the micros with SnGs but my cash game makes me a -EV player. I'm playing $.01/$.02 and $.02/$.05 and I seem to punt off my stack fairly often. I know the micros are lame to a lot of you guys/girls but I'm starting here because I want to learn to play the game and move up based on results, not my ability to fund a bankroll based on my job.

My sample size is small, but I know I'm still not playing well. I've read a fair number of books but a lot of them seem tourney focused so I'm looking for books/articles/sites that do a good job of covering the cash game aspect of poker. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Jason
2/8/11 9:17 PM
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VectorWega
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Do you know how to find/post your hand history?  I'd be interested in seeing some of the hands you stack off with.
2/11/11 10:26 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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Edited: 02/11/11 10:40 PM
Member Since: 6/9/10
Posts: 30
Here are some hands:

Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - <a href=http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1172237>View hand 1172237</a><br />
<a href=http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_html>DeucesCracked Poker Videos</a> <a href=http://www.handconverter.com>Hand History Converter</a><br />
<br />
<strong>Hero (BTN): $1.92</strong><br />
SB: $0.81<br />
BB: $3.56<br />
<strong>CO: $3.78</strong><br />
<br />
<strong>Pre Flop:</strong> ($0.03) Hero is BTN with T<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" alt=" of hearts" /> T<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" alt=" of diamonds" /><br />
CO calls $0.02, <span style="color: red;">Hero raises to $0.06</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, BB calls $0.04, CO calls $0.04<br />
<br />
<strong>Flop:</strong> ($0.19) 6<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" alt=" of diamonds" /> 3<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> 3<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" alt=" of hearts" /> <span style="color: blue;">(3 players)</span><br />
BB checks, CO checks, <span style="color: red;">Hero bets $0.15</span>, BB folds, CO calls $0.15<br />
<br />
<strong>Turn:</strong> ($0.49) 7<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> <span style="color: blue;">(2 players)</span><br />
CO checks, <span style="color: red;">Hero bets $1.71</span>, CO calls $1.71<br />
<br />
<strong>River:</strong> ($3.91) 8<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" alt=" of spades" /> <span style="color: blue;">(2 players)</span><br />
<br />





Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - <a href=http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1172244>View hand 1172244</a><br />
<a href=http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_html>DeucesCracked Poker Videos</a> <a href=http://www.handconverter.com>Hand History Converter</a><br />
<br />
Hero (BB): $4.96<br />
UTG: $1.55<br />
<strong>UTG+1: $1.95</strong><br />
UTG+2: $2.60<br />
MP1: $3.80<br />
MP2: $3.94<br />
CO: $0.34<br />
BTN: $2.02<br />
SB: $0.78<br />
<br />
<strong>Pre Flop:</strong> ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" alt=" of hearts" /> K<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" alt=" of diamonds" /><br />
<span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, UTG+1 calls $0.02, <span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, <span style="color: red;">MP1 raises to $0.04</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">2 folds</span>, BTN calls $0.04, <span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02<br />
<br />
<strong>Flop:</strong> ($0.17) 2<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> J<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" alt=" of spades" /> T<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" alt=" of hearts" /> <span style="color: blue;">(4 players)</span><br />
<span style="color: red;">Hero bets $0.12</span>, <span style="color: red;">UTG+1 raises to $0.30</span>, MP1 folds, BTN folds, <span style="color: red;">Hero raises to $0.60</span>, <span style="color: red;">UTG+1 raises to $1.50</span>, <span style="color: red;">Hero raises to $2.40</span>, UTG+1 calls $0.41 all in<br />
<br />
<strong>Turn:</strong> ($3.99) J<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" alt=" of hearts" /> <span style="color: blue;">(2 players - 1 is all in)</span><br />
<br />
<strong>River:</strong> ($3.99) J<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> <span style="color: blue;">(2 players - 1 is all in)</span><br />
<br />





Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - <a href=http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1172270>View hand 1172270</a><br />
<a href=http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_html>DeucesCracked Poker Videos</a> <a href=http://www.handconverter.com>Hand History Converter</a><br />
<br />
Hero (SB): $1.51<br />
BB: $2.00<br />
UTG: $5.31<br />
UTG+1: $4.14<br />
<strong>UTG+2: $2.00</strong><br />
MP1: $1.00<br />
MP2: $0.94<br />
CO: $2.28<br />
BTN: $1.70<br />
<br />
<strong>Pre Flop:</strong> ($0.03) Hero is SB with K<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" alt=" of spades" /> K<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /><br />
<span style="font-style: italic;">2 folds</span>, UTG+2 calls $0.02, <span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, MP2 calls $0.02, <span style="font-style: italic;">2 folds</span>, <span style="color: red;">Hero raises to $0.10</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">1 fold</span>, UTG+2 calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08<br />
<br />
<strong>Flop:</strong> ($0.32) 8<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" alt=" of spades" /> 7<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" alt=" of diamonds" /> A<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" alt=" of diamonds" /> <span style="color: blue;">(3 players)</span><br />
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks<br />
<br />
<strong>Turn:</strong> ($0.32) A<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> <span style="color: blue;">(3 players)</span><br />
<span style="color: red;">Hero bets $0.20</span>, <span style="color: red;">UTG+2 raises to $0.40</span>, MP2 folds, Hero calls $0.20<br />
<br />
<strong>River:</strong> ($1.12) 9<img src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" alt=" of clubs" /> <span style="color: blue;">(2 players)</span><br />
Hero checks, <span style="color: red;">UTG+2 bets $0.60</span>, <span style="color: red;">Hero raises to $1.01</span>, UTG+2 calls $0.41<br />
<br />


Some might be considered bat beats (I have to look at the odds on them as I study) but in any case I'm sure I made mistakes.

Edited cause I suck at selecting the correct output.
2/11/11 10:31 PM
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VectorWega
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I think u selected the wrong conversion option. 
2/11/11 10:35 PM
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VectorWega
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Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1172235
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $1.51
BB: $2.00
UTG: $5.31
UTG+1: $4.14
UTG+2: $2.00
MP1: $1.00
MP2: $0.94
CO: $2.28
BTN: $1.70

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with K of spades K of clubs
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.32) 8 of spades 7 of diamonds A of diamonds (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks

Turn: ($0.32) A of clubs (3 players)
Hero bets $0.20, UTG+2 raises to $0.40, MP2 folds, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.12) 9 of clubs (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.60, Hero raises to $1.01, UTG+2 calls $0.41

2/11/11 10:37 PM
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VectorWega
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Member Since: 4/7/08
Posts: 14285
Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 1172237
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $1.92
SB: $0.81
BB: $3.56
CO: $3.78

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with T of hearts T of diamonds
CO calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04, CO calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) 6 of diamonds 3 of clubs 3 of hearts (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.15, BB folds, CO calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.49) 7 of clubs (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.71, CO calls $1.71

River: ($3.91) 8 of spades (2 players)

2/11/11 10:38 PM
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VectorWega
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Member Since: 4/7/08
Posts: 14286
Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1172244
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $4.96
UTG: $1.55
UTG+1: $1.95
UTG+2: $2.60
MP1: $3.80
MP2: $3.94
CO: $0.34
BTN: $2.02
SB: $0.78

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q of hearts K of diamonds
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $0.04, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.17) 2 of clubs J of spades T of hearts (4 players)
Hero bets $0.12, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, MP1 folds, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $2.40, UTG+1 calls $0.41 all in

Turn: ($3.99) J of hearts (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($3.99) J of clubs (2 players - 1 is all in)

2/11/11 10:45 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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Thanks Vector. It looks like i brought some of the hands in cut off as well, going to have to go back and grab them so they are complete.

Looks like my cash games aren't the only thing that needs work. No more poker after ~70 hr weeks at work.
2/11/11 10:45 PM
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VectorWega
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VectorWega - Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 1172237
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $1.92
SB: $0.81
BB: $3.56
CO: $3.78

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with T of hearts T of diamonds
CO calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04, CO calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) 6 of diamonds 3 of clubs 3 of hearts (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.15, BB folds, CO calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.49) 7 of clubs (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.71, CO calls $1.71

River: ($3.91) 8 of spades (2 players)


 From a mathematical perspective the bet of $1.71 on the turn makes no sense.  You are risking $1.71 to win just $0.49.  All you have is 2 pair.  There's a possibility of a made straight, a full house, 3 of a kind, JJ, etc.  At this point you really can't know where you are at, and I see the shove a lot by new players that are scared to "play poker" (aka value bet and figure out where they are in the hand on the river,..not being scared of what if my opponent shoves the river etc).

Also, I'd be interested to know why you raised it to .10 with kings and .06 with tens.
2/11/11 10:59 PM
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VectorWega
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VectorWega - Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1172244
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $4.96
UTG: $1.55
UTG+1: $1.95
UTG+2: $2.60
MP1: $3.80
MP2: $3.94
CO: $0.34
BTN: $2.02
SB: $0.78

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q of hearts K of diamonds
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $0.04, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.17) 2 of clubs J of spades T of hearts (4 players)
Hero bets $0.12, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, MP1 folds, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $2.40, UTG+1 calls $0.41 all in

Turn: ($3.99) J of hearts (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($3.99) J of clubs (2 players - 1 is all in)


I don't like this action at all.  You got it all in a spot where best case scenario you are generally an underdog (vs a pair) and worst case scenario you are way behind (vs 2 pair or a set..hands far more likely to go all in then a pair here).  A lot of pairs take away some of your outs (AJ, KJ, QJ, etc)

At a higher level perhaps you could semi bluff preflop, but really you would want to make the raise bigger (rather than just doubling his) and aside from that when he raises it from .12 to .30 he is showing a lot of strength.

When playing this level, you really need to channel your inner-Hellmuth.  Would Phil Hellmuth get it all in with a straight draw?  Of course not.  He would get it all in with the straight.  It is so easy to at that level to get it in with the nuts, so why even bother getting it all in with king high?
 
2/12/11 10:11 AM
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Kamikaze Emu
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VectorWega - 
VectorWega - Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - <a href="http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1172237">View hand 1172237</a>
<a href="http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_html">DeucesCracked Poker Videos</a> <a href="http://www.handconverter.com">Hand History Converter</a>

<strong>Hero (BTN): $1.92</strong>
SB: $0.81
BB: $3.56
<strong>CO: $3.78</strong>

<strong>Pre Flop:</strong> ($0.03) Hero is BTN with T<img alt=" of hearts" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" /> T<img alt=" of diamonds" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" />
CO calls $0.02, <span style="color: red">Hero raises to $0.06</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">1 fold</span>, BB calls $0.04, CO calls $0.04

<strong>Flop:</strong> ($0.19) 6<img alt=" of diamonds" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" /> 3<img alt=" of clubs" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" /> 3<img alt=" of hearts" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(3 players)</span>
BB checks, CO checks, <span style="color: red">Hero bets $0.15</span>, BB folds, CO calls $0.15

<strong>Turn:</strong> ($0.49) 7<img alt=" of clubs" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(2 players)</span>
CO checks, <span style="color: red">Hero bets $1.71</span>, CO calls $1.71

<strong>River:</strong> ($3.91) 8<img alt=" of spades" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(2 players)</span>


 From a mathematical perspective the bet of $1.71 on the turn makes no sense.  You are risking $1.71 to win just $0.49.  All you have is 2 pair.  There's a possibility of a made straight, a full house, 3 of a kind, JJ, etc.  At this point you really can't know where you are at, and I see the shove a lot by new players that are scared to "play poker" (aka value bet and figure out where they are in the hand on the river,..not being scared of what if my opponent shoves the river etc).

Also, I'd be interested to know why you raised it to .10 with kings and .06 with tens.


I went with .10 here as I had two guys limp in the pot ahead so I wanted to cut down on their pot odds. I've read a lot about entering the pot for 3x the big blind + 1x for each limper so that's what I try to do.

By that logic I should have went for .08 with the tens as the CO limped in there. Need to work on my consistency.

What are your thoughts on my .10 with KK given my reasoning?
2/12/11 10:15 AM
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Kamikaze Emu
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Posts: 33
VectorWega - 
VectorWega - Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - <a href="http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1172244">View hand 1172244</a>
<a href="http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_html">DeucesCracked Poker Videos</a> <a href="http://www.handconverter.com">Hand History Converter</a>

Hero (BB): $4.96
UTG: $1.55
<strong>UTG+1: $1.95</strong>
UTG+2: $2.60
MP1: $3.80
MP2: $3.94
CO: $0.34
BTN: $2.02
SB: $0.78

<strong>Pre Flop:</strong> ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q<img alt=" of hearts" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" /> K<img alt=" of diamonds" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/diamond.png" />
<span style="font-style: italic">1 fold</span>, UTG+1 calls $0.02, <span style="font-style: italic">1 fold</span>, <span style="color: red">MP1 raises to $0.04</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">2 folds</span>, BTN calls $0.04, <span style="font-style: italic">1 fold</span>, Hero calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02

<strong>Flop:</strong> ($0.17) 2<img alt=" of clubs" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" /> J<img alt=" of spades" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/spade.png" /> T<img alt=" of hearts" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(4 players)</span>
<span style="color: red">Hero bets $0.12</span>, <span style="color: red">UTG+1 raises to $0.30</span>, MP1 folds, BTN folds, <span style="color: red">Hero raises to $0.60</span>, <span style="color: red">UTG+1 raises to $1.50</span>, <span style="color: red">Hero raises to $2.40</span>, UTG+1 calls $0.41 all in

<strong>Turn:</strong> ($3.99) J<img alt=" of hearts" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/heart.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(2 players - 1 is all in)</span>

<strong>River:</strong> ($3.99) J<img alt=" of clubs" src="http://images.deucescracked.com/suits/club.png" /> <span style="color: blue">(2 players - 1 is all in)</span>


I don't like this action at all.  You got it all in a spot where best case scenario you are generally an underdog (vs a pair) and worst case scenario you are way behind (vs 2 pair or a set..hands far more likely to go all in then a pair here).  A lot of pairs take away some of your outs (AJ, KJ, QJ, etc)

At a higher level perhaps you could semi bluff preflop, but really you would want to make the raise bigger (rather than just doubling his) and aside from that when he raises it from .12 to .30 he is showing a lot of strength.

When playing this level, you really need to channel your inner-Hellmuth.  Would Phil Hellmuth get it all in with a straight draw?  Of course not.  He would get it all in with the straight.  It is so easy to at that level to get it in with the nuts, so why even bother getting it all in with king high?
 


Thanks, this gives me a lot to think about, which is really good.

I have a problem with not respecting the play of the opponents as I feel when I get a decent hand I need to win with it no matter what as I'm waiting a lot of decent hands to get in on the action. I should really have given him credit for his re-raise.


2/12/11 5:21 PM
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andre
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Kk hand: bet more preflop and cbet the flop, IMO.

Tt; raise bigger preflop, IMO.


KQ: depending on your read of the table, 3bet 4x preflop or fold pre. Playing KQo out of position is usually a huge mistake unless you have a super read on the table.
2/13/11 4:48 AM
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VectorWega
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While you would like to Isolate with KK or TT, I would much rather isolate with TT because there are a lot more scare cards for TT than KK.  For that reason, I would recommend betting more with TT.  That being said, my preflop bet-sizes are generally based on position and not cards, so what do I know?

2/13/11 1:41 PM
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andre
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One habit I'm trying to break is making my bet sizes too automatic. The bet has to accomplish whatever it is you want it to accomplish. Having a set rule of 3x + 1, for example, ignores the tendencies of the players at the table.
2/13/11 8:29 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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andre - One habit I'm trying to break is making my bet sizes too automatic. The bet has to accomplish whatever it is you want it to accomplish. Having a set rule of 3x + 1, for example, ignores the tendencies of the players at the table.


That's a good point, one which I think would take a lot of playing time to iron out. I often find I drive people out of pots with my standard betting, which means I'm killing action. If I vary my bet sizing (going below my ~2/3 pot sized bet) I might entice more people to come along for the ride. It might not be ideal in terms of building the biggest pot, but it's better to take down even small bets instead of everyone folding.

Just played AA and won $.05, when a few hands later in late position I pick up both blinds ($.03) by raising on the button with trash. After the AA hand I kind of wished I'd limped in with them (which would have been in line with varying bet sized based on my opponents tendencies), but it's not a habit I'm into.

Just thinking out loud. It's also great to have a place to do so.
2/13/11 9:35 PM
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andre
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Emu, I think that 99% of the time it is a mistake to limp with AA or KK. If you make a raise and everyone folds, so be it. It's better than limping and having one or more callers whose hands you can't define because there hasn't been a raise. I was in this situation Ina tournament (turned into a huge thread on the OG) in which I let someone make a straight with 7-3 after I flopped a set of kings. I paid him off at the end because I never defined his hand.

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