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Weapons UnderGround >> Shootout with IPSC Grandmaster


2/13/11 10:06 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/...ery-shot-back/

Combat shooter goes after jewelry thieves, not knowing if they were armed, nor if they had robbed anything, due to driving up to his store and seeing them fleeing at high speed. The company which supplies his store was making a delivery. Thieves were rammed by this store owner their airbags deployed and he disabled their vehicle. Then he got out and this master pistol shooter, who had a five-round pistol. He shot all five rounds, hit nothing and they got away with several bags of 'loot'.

Problem is, they were fleeing, ramming their car is illegal (wouldn't want to pay his next insurance premium), he had only 5 rounds, and he hit no one at car length distances. He also shot at their lookout car, about 35 feet away and hit no one.

Fortunately, he was not hit. I'd be surprised if he's not arrested and indicted on several charges.

Goes to show that tactical practice is not the same as IRL.

Here is another story with some more details on the shooting:
http://www.marconews.com/news/2011/f...ot-east-coast/

Hope this is of interest...
2/13/11 11:33 PM
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Team Python
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WidespreadPanic -  <a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/">http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/...ery-shot-back/</a>

Combat shooter goes after jewelry thieves, not knowing if they were armed, nor if they had robbed anything, due to driving up to his store and seeing them fleeing at high speed. The company which supplies his store was making a delivery. Thieves were rammed by this store owner their airbags deployed and he disabled their vehicle. Then he got out and this master pistol shooter, who had a five-round pistol. He shot all five rounds, hit nothing and they got away with several bags of 'loot'.

Problem is, they were fleeing, ramming their car is illegal (wouldn't want to pay his next insurance premium), he had only 5 rounds, and he hit no one at car length distances. He also shot at their lookout car, about 35 feet away and hit no one.

Fortunately, he was not hit. I'd be surprised if he's not arrested and indicted on several charges.

Goes to show that tactical practice is not the same as IRL.

Here is another story with some more details on the shooting:
<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.marconews.com/news/2011/feb/09/Sandy-Thalheimer-jewelers-robbery-shoot-east-coast/">http://www.marconews.com/news/2011/f...ot-east-coast/</a>

Hope this is of interest...<br type="_moz" />



Yeah competition shooting and combat shooting are two different things. Also I don't think you can kill someone for taking your personal property either.
2/14/11 8:12 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Team Python -
Yeah competition shooting and combat shooting are two different things. Also I don't think you can kill someone for taking your personal property either.

They try to simulate some of the stress of a 'real shoot' in ISPC combatpistolcraft shooting, with pop up targets and a timed round, but nobody is shooting back at you. Maybe they should include that using sim-munition?

As to killing property you can find states and laws where it's justified to prevent a felony in progress. Who's to say if 'fleeing the scene' is 'in progress' if you have the loot and are driving dangerously, etc.?

As I mentioned it wasn't his property, he admitted on camera he didn't know if they had done anything just suspected it. I hope he's cringing right now and changing his ways.

Some people have the mistaken idea that carrying a HG means you're supposed to act as the law when there's no cops around.

2/15/11 12:13 PM
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Team Python
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WidespreadPanic - 
Team Python -
Yeah competition shooting and combat shooting are two different things. Also I don't think you can kill someone for taking your personal property either.

They try to simulate some of the stress of a 'real shoot' in ISPC combatpistolcraft shooting, with pop up targets and a timed round, but nobody is shooting back at you. Maybe they should include that using sim-munition?

As to killing property you can find states and laws where it's justified to prevent a felony in progress. Who's to say if 'fleeing the scene' is 'in progress' if you have the loot and are driving dangerously, etc.?

As I mentioned it wasn't his property, he admitted on camera he didn't know if they had done anything just suspected it. I hope he's cringing right now and changing his ways.

Some people have the mistaken idea that carrying a HG means you're supposed to act as the law when there's no cops around.
<br type="_moz" />


ISPC shooters will say that timed target shooting will simulate what happens during a real shooting....wrong. They get pissed off when you tell them targets don't shoot back. Some people even get angry when you mention point shooting like it is a crime. ISPC shooters also think they will use their sights during a combat situation.
2/15/11 6:04 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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^^I'll tell you what's more is that if this kind of shooting engenders a mindset like this guy had, thanks, but no thanks.

3/23/11 3:27 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Team Python - 
WidespreadPanic - 
Team Python -
Yeah competition shooting and combat shooting are two different things. Also I don't think you can kill someone for taking your personal property either.

They try to simulate some of the stress of a 'real shoot' in ISPC combatpistolcraft shooting, with pop up targets and a timed round, but nobody is shooting back at you. Maybe they should include that using sim-munition?

As to killing property you can find states and laws where it's justified to prevent a felony in progress. Who's to say if 'fleeing the scene' is 'in progress' if you have the loot and are driving dangerously, etc.?

As I mentioned it wasn't his property, he admitted on camera he didn't know if they had done anything just suspected it. I hope he's cringing right now and changing his ways.

Some people have the mistaken idea that carrying a HG means you're supposed to act as the law when there's no cops around.



ISPC shooters will say that timed target shooting will simulate what happens during a real shooting....wrong. They get pissed off when you tell them targets don't shoot back. Some people even get angry when you mention point shooting like it is a crime. ISPC shooters also think they will use their sights during a combat situation.


Wrong. Any USPSA/IPSC shooter I know will tell you that IPSC is a game. The clock adds stress, sure, but I can't imagine anyone thinks it's the same stress/adrenaline dump you would feel in a fight. After a few matches all the clock does is mandate the need for efficient movement, which obviously has nothing to do with gunfighting.

Still, if I had to choose between someone who shoots his revolver in a match every week or someone who shoots his revolver once a year, I think my pick would be the guy with the most trigger time.
5/28/11 10:54 PM
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FJJ828
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 My home town.

Very questionable strategy and tactics...

Not sure what's gonna happen though.
6/1/11 5:17 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 """They try to simulate some of the stress of a 'real shoot' in ISPC combatpistolcraft shooting, with pop up targets and a timed round, but nobody is shooting back at you"""

And, since nobody is shooting at you AND the mind has not registered a life and death situation YOU WILL NOT BE UNDER BODY ALARM CONDITION. 

Once the reality of life and death hits the nervous system FUNCTION get's seriously impaired.

SIMUNITION gets as close as possible to the reality of "fighting with firearms".
6/14/11 11:47 AM
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tracher999
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iff they are armed than it was pure self defence
self defence is not a crime here in belgium
i dont now in other countries
6/17/11 3:45 PM
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SidRon
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Edited: 06/17/11 3:46 PM
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USPSA/IPSC provides great training for those real life situations when you need to quickly dispatch 18 to 24 unarmed completely motionless assailants.

All kidding aside though, practical shooting such as USPSA/IDPA is definately superior to no training. It is probably the martial arts equivalent of doing forms or hitting punching bags or focus mits. Force on Force training would be similar to controlled sparring. I think that the extreme proficiency in weapon manipulation that high level practical shooters achieve combined with frequent force on force training is probably the best way to go. I am proficent in neither.
11/3/11 12:10 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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Also, that dude is not a GM. Just saying. He's also not a revolver shooter, so I don't know why he would be carrying one.
11/3/11 1:28 PM
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BshMstr
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Edited: 11/03/11 1:32 PM
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this is a similar phenoma that LEO have in gunfights with bad guys as well...

i'll have to dig up the percentages, but cops generally only marginally win, statiscally. one of the factors was the response, in which cops show up when the BG already has their gun out. another surprising factor is that a lot of criminals do practice, albeit unstructured, and as simple as popping off a few rounds at a stop sign.

we do a lot of force on force training to implement our firearms, DT and use of force stuff because of this....
11/3/11 1:39 PM
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BshMstr
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Rhymenoceros - Also, that dude is not a GM. Just saying. He's also not a revolver shooter, so I don't know why he would be carrying one.


good point about the revolver...

i carry a Glock at work, and carry a subcompact offduty. same sights (tritum), same trigger pull, and carry if on my hip (concealed, though). people have asked me why, i told them because that's how i'm trained, and figure that's what i'll fall back on...
11/4/11 1:24 AM
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Skpotamus
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The guy was listed as a master class shooter, which is the highest ranking in IDPA and the second highest in USPSA. The guy owned his own shooting school, me thinks he was probably doing too much gun gaming focused shooting instead of practicing with guns he might actually carry.
11/4/11 11:03 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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Skpotamus - The guy was listed as a master class shooter, which is the highest ranking in IDPA and the second highest in USPSA. The guy owned his own shooting school, me thinks he was probably doing too much gun gaming focused shooting instead of practicing with guns he might actually carry.


He is a master class shooter in Limited division, and definitely not a very good one. He has been in the sport since 1989 (according to uspsa.org), and has shot upwards of a billion classifiers. If you "grandbag" and "zero or hero" that many classifiers pretty much anyone can make Master over that period of time. It's unknown whether or not he shoots IDPA, but I doubt it, not that it would have better prepared him to shoot a 5 round snub-nosed revolver (and probably with only one hand at that).

He owned a shooting school, but I can't seem to find any info on it. All of my web searches turn up the jewelry store. Maybe he owned a real school, maybe he just taught ad hoc classes, maybe he just claimed to be an instructor to boost his ego.

In any case, your last statement is a bit of a logical fallacy. While I agree that anyone who carries a gun ought to be extremely practiced with it, I don't see how time spent shooting IPSC or IDPA or whatever is somehow taking time away from shooting carry guns. It's like saying "he played chess too much" or "he practiced the guitar too much." Blaming competition for the fact that this guy sucked with a revolver is pretty silly. If he assumed that shooting a 1911 would somehow prepare him for shooting a snub nosed revolver, then shame on him, but also shame on anyone else who thinks that somehow competition should have prepared him for the scenario he faced that day, with the retarded weapon he happened to be carrying.

Otherwise I have no idea what you mean by "gun gaming focused shooting."
11/5/11 11:09 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 11/05/11 11:12 AM
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To make master class is still a pretty big accomplishment. It puts him in the 85- 94.5% category. I've not seen anyone who qualified master who wasn't a damn good comp shooter.

What I meant is that if he was practicing with a skeletonized 1911 with an optic site and a trigger under a pound then it's not going to help him a whole lot when he's shooting a totally different platform with a 9lb trigger pull IME.

You should practice with what you carry IMHO. Not practice with one platform and carry something completely different. Obviously his training and practice didn't prepare him for his real shootout. Emptying a revolver at damned near point blank range and hitting nothing doesn't sound like his competition training helped him at all. Which is what "focusing too much on gun gaming" means to me.
12/20/11 12:35 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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Skpotamus - To make master class is still a pretty big accomplishment. It puts him in the 85- 94.5% category. I've not seen anyone who qualified master who wasn't a damn good comp shooter.

What I meant is that if he was practicing with a skeletonized 1911 with an optic site and a trigger under a pound then it's not going to help him a whole lot when he's shooting a totally different platform with a 9lb trigger pull IME.

You should practice with what you carry IMHO. Not practice with one platform and carry something completely different. Obviously his training and practice didn't prepare him for his real shootout. Emptying a revolver at damned near point blank range and hitting nothing doesn't sound like his competition training helped him at all. Which is what "focusing too much on gun gaming" means to me.


Having recently made Master class (Production division) I agree that's it's a pretty big accomplishment within the sport. However, I can't imagine anyone who shoots USPSA would claim that making Master class with a Limited gun would somehow prepare someone to also be an expert with a snub nosed revolver.

You're saying that somehow his competition shooting should have been better "training." My point is that it's not even proven that he was competing with the intent of training himself, nor that he was even that good of a competitor.

I totally agree that you should practice with what you carry. In 2013 I'm going to move to Limited division, and when I do my carry gun will switch to a 1911. I also still believe that a snub nosed revolver is truly an expert's gun, despite their popularity. And not just a shooting expert's gun - a snub nosed revolver shooting expert's gun.

I'll make a quick comparison - I shoot against a guy who is a former Marine Corps sniper. This guy's fundamentals of marksmanship with a rifle are ridiculous. Yet he's never beaten me with a pistol, even when I was relatively new. Why? Because they are two totally different disciplines, with totally different principles of marksmanship. The difference between a custom 2011 and a snub nosed revolver is probably comparable.

Anyway, I think we would both agree that the guy should be in jail just for being so stupid as to have the knowledge and familiarity of the 1911 pistol (the pistol that is the easiest to make hits with in the world - hence its popularity in competition), and to choose to carry the most difficult pistol to use in the world.
1/12/12 9:21 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Bob Munden 200yd shot with a snubbie?

Actually a belly gun, but done outdoors. Not sure that's 200yds, looks about 100-150 but could be foreshortening due to the camera.

ALSO, doesn't disprove you should use a bigger/EDC firearm. AND, if you're not in combat mode (tunnel vision, etc.) it's not the same. Good replies, guys, thanks!
1/19/12 6:42 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Edited: 01/19/12 6:48 PM
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 In my opinion...

You have got to get to the point where they are shooting back at close to medium distances. 

This is often preceeded by disceptive dialoge and diceptive body language.

All the range work in the world doesn't get you "combat ready". It's kinda like debating in the mirror or with people who are not as intelligent as you. It's fun, semi-rewarding and impresses people BUT it does not prepare you for a "shootout" (which was what was stated in the title of the thread).

Only by the use of Simunition can we get to the point where we apply our firearms techniques under pressure and in realistic ways.

Years ago I did my Simunition Supervisor training (5 day course) at the Huntington Beach PD. The final day was spent in an abandoned mall playing out scenarios with real weapons converted to SIMS. I was on the "range program - non LEO" so it made sense that in the scenarios I played the armed bank robber with a few other non LEOs. 

Me and another guy come out of a jewelry store with a bag of goods and I had a Glock 19 and he had a Reminton 870. About 20 cops had surrounded us. We come out shooting. We both make it out and down the mall a ways. I hit two cops and he hit one. He gets hit after unloading his 870 and transitioning to his S and W. About 2 minutes later, after taking cover in an alcove, I make it farther shooting my way down even farther. Then after about 5 minutes of dialoge/shooting/cops circling me and me trying to move I hit another cop and then get hit in the stomach and face. They take me down and cuff me, secure the area and the the scenario is called.

At the end of the day we debrief the video of the whole thing. The realities of "what happens under body alarm condition, fear of life and death and persons under developed combat skills" becomes clear. Shooting is ONE THING. Fighting with firearms is ANOITHER THING ALTOGETHER. I went through about 13 rounds from a hi cap mag and hit maybe three people (considering I had about 20 different targets to choose from - and some being too over confident they could hide amongst the many and some just not using cover properly). But 20 were shooting at us and I was only hit 2 times with "20 shooting at me". The other guy was hit only once with 20 shooting at him. This was because "when your heart is in your throat and your sympathetic nervous system is freaking out performance (especially fine motor skills) go out the window. You fall to the level of your experience with the actual condidtions.

It was a very memorable experience.



 
1/19/12 7:39 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Demitrius Barbito -  In my opinion...

You have got to get to the point where they are shooting back at close to medium distances. 

This is often preceeded by disceptive dialoge and diceptive body language.

All the range work in the world doesn't get you "combat ready". It's kinda like debating in the mirror or with people who are not as intelligent as you. It's fun, semi-rewarding and impresses people BUT it does not prepare you for a "shootout" (which was what was stated in the title of the thread).

Only by the use of Simunition can we get to the point where we apply our firearms techniques under pressure and in realistic ways.

Years ago I did my Simunition Supervisor training (5 day course) at the Huntington Beach PD. The final day was spent in an abandoned mall playing out scenarios with real weapons converted to SIMS. I was on the "range program - non LEO" so it made sense that in the scenarios I played the armed bank robber with a few other non LEOs. 

Me and another guy come out of a jewelry store with a bag of goods and I had a Glock 19 and he had a Reminton 870. About 20 cops had surrounded us. We come out shooting. We both make it out and down the mall a ways. I hit two cops and he hit one. He gets hit after unloading his 870 and transitioning to his S and W. About 2 minutes later, after taking cover in an alcove, I make it farther shooting my way down even farther. Then after about 5 minutes of dialoge/shooting/cops circling me and me trying to move I hit another cop and then get hit in the stomach and face. They take me down and cuff me, secure the area and the the scenario is called.

At the end of the day we debrief the video of the whole thing. The realities of "what happens under body alarm condition, fear of life and death and persons under developed combat skills" becomes clear. Shooting is ONE THING. Fighting with firearms is ANOITHER THING ALTOGETHER. I went through about 13 rounds from a hi cap mag and hit maybe three people (considering I had about 20 different targets to choose from - and some being too over confident they could hide amongst the many and some just not using cover properly). But 20 were shooting at us and I was only hit 2 times with "20 shooting at me". The other guy was hit only once with 20 shooting at him. This was because "when your heart is in your throat and your sympathetic nervous system is freaking out performance (especially fine motor skills) go out the window. You fall to the level of your experience with the actual condidtions.

It was a very memorable experience.


<br type="_moz" /> 


I totally agree, which is why I'm going to find a good "gunfighting" school at some point in my shooting career - one where they use simmunitions and stage scenarios to work through.

I'll say this: The major difference between, say, an A class USPSA shooter and a Grandmaster is mostly the ability to play the game. The incremental differences in shooting ability between an A and a GM are actually pretty small; however, the difference in game-specific skills such as shooting on the move, entering/exiting positions, breaking down stages, shooting swinging or moving targets, and the mental game are vast. Sure, GMs call shots better, they index more naturally off the draw, they may shoot splits .05 seconds faster, (and perhaps most importantly) they transition tenths of a second faster. But when is the ability to transition fast going to help you that much in a gunfight? I'm sure anyone would rank experience over fast splits when it comes to handicapping who would win a duel or something.

That isn't to say that the gun games don't have some value, or even a lot of value. I just made Master, and after watching hours and hours of youtube videos I can confidently say that I can outshoot virtually any tactical instructor out there. A lot of them I could beat while half asleep. Obviously I'm talking about a shooting competition and not a gunfight.

Ben Stoeger (GM) wrote that when he was going through the police academy his experience as a competitor allowed him to get more out of the tactical exercises than his classmates who were trying to learn to gunfight while also trying to learn to shoot. In fact, in simmunitions exercises he said after getting accustomed to the stress he was able to routinely pop headshots at distances where his "opponents" couldn't even hit center of mass. Without USPSA and similar gun games he wouldn't have had the shooting ability to do as well in the tactical exercises (not that they didn't have their own distinct learning curve).
2/10/12 10:21 PM
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FJJ828
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WidespreadPanic -  http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/...ery-shot-back/

Combat shooter goes after jewelry thieves, not knowing if they were armed, nor if they had robbed anything, due to driving up to his store and seeing them fleeing at high speed. The company which supplies his store was making a delivery. Thieves were rammed by this store owner their airbags deployed and he disabled their vehicle. Then he got out and this master pistol shooter, who had a five-round pistol. He shot all five rounds, hit nothing and they got away with several bags of 'loot'.

Problem is, they were fleeing, ramming their car is illegal (wouldn't want to pay his next insurance premium), he had only 5 rounds, and he hit no one at car length distances. He also shot at their lookout car, about 35 feet away and hit no one.

Fortunately, he was not hit. I'd be surprised if he's not arrested and indicted on several charges.

Goes to show that tactical practice is not the same as IRL.

Here is another story with some more details on the shooting:
http://www.marconews.com/news/2011/f...ot-east-coast/

Hope this is of interest...

 This was in my town. It is an example of what not to do and everyone but this guy knows it.
2/12/12 8:35 PM
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Lofland
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Edited: 02/12/12 8:36 PM
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Jim Cirillo (NYPD stakeout unit in the '70s, many gunfights) and H.W. McBride (author of A Rifleman Went to War, 2 years in the trenches in WW1) felt that shooting competitions (including target shooting) were very helpful training for someone who wanted to survive a gunfight. They did not always compete with the same guns they brought to battle.
2/15/12 12:20 PM
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BshMstr
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i wonder if those guys simply felt training was what was important.... i'm curious how their training was back then. LEO pistol training was pretty rigid, and didn't really change until after the FBI shootout in Miami...
1/8/13 3:21 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Demitrius Barbito -  In my opinion...

You have got to get to the point where they are shooting back at close to medium distances. 

This is often preceeded by disceptive dialoge and diceptive body language.

All the range work in the world doesn't get you "combat ready". It's kinda like debating in the mirror or with people who are not as intelligent as you. It's fun, semi-rewarding and impresses people BUT it does not prepare you for a "shootout" (which was what was stated in the title of the thread).

Only by the use of Simunition can we get to the point where we apply our firearms techniques under pressure and in realistic ways.

Years ago I did my Simunition Supervisor training (5 day course) at the Huntington Beach PD. The final day was spent in an abandoned mall playing out scenarios with real weapons converted to SIMS. I was on the "range program - non LEO" so it made sense that in the scenarios I played the armed bank robber with a few other non LEOs. 

Me and another guy come out of a jewelry store with a bag of goods and I had a Glock 19 and he had a Reminton 870. About 20 cops had surrounded us. We come out shooting. We both make it out and down the mall a ways. I hit two cops and he hit one. He gets hit after unloading his 870 and transitioning to his S and W. About 2 minutes later, after taking cover in an alcove, I make it farther shooting my way down even farther. Then after about 5 minutes of dialoge/shooting/cops circling me and me trying to move I hit another cop and then get hit in the stomach and face. They take me down and cuff me, secure the area and the the scenario is called.

At the end of the day we debrief the video of the whole thing. The realities of "what happens under body alarm condition, fear of life and death and persons under developed combat skills" becomes clear. Shooting is ONE THING. Fighting with firearms is ANOITHER THING ALTOGETHER. I went through about 13 rounds from a hi cap mag and hit maybe three people (considering I had about 20 different targets to choose from - and some being too over confident they could hide amongst the many and some just not using cover properly). But 20 were shooting at us and I was only hit 2 times with "20 shooting at me". The other guy was hit only once with 20 shooting at him. This was because "when your heart is in your throat and your sympathetic nervous system is freaking out performance (especially fine motor skills) go out the window. You fall to the level of your experience with the actual condidtions.

It was a very memorable experience.



 

One of the best posts on firearms anywhere on the forums. Bears repeating. Demi is the shiznitz. He does real tactical training with the pepper spray and other good stuff.

 

1/8/13 10:08 AM
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Dark Knight
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