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Weapons UnderGround >> defending against knife attack


2/18/11 6:38 PM
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JKDilla
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Who saw the interviews with Joseph Lozito earlier this week? He's the guy who helped catch the guy who went on a stabbing spree last weekend. How would you defend yourself if put in a similiar siutation?

http://chicagosmma.com/2011/02/defending-against-knife-attaks-with-mma-techniques/
2/19/11 2:25 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Principles include 'space', 'distance', 'angle', 'distraction', 'obstacle'.

Get a partner and start with both of you up against a wall and you have two hands on his knife arm wrist. Use a wooden dowel or plastic knife. Wall fight, and use BJJ principles and distance to disarm or submit him.

Walk by a guy who is hiding his (practice) knife and unrehearsed, have him suddenly lunge at you. Use both hands and a head spear and forward pressure to drive him back and make space. You can wear some gear, padding, etc. Idea is to drive him back off his feet.

Have a guy with a (practice) knife in a sheath on his belt. Start with him on top in mount, underhooked. Fight for him to get the blade deployed, you trying to submit or disarm or prevent deployment.

Work other similar drills, resetting if you get 'stabbed'.

IRL, use distraction, timing (get off before the knife guy does), and obstacles. Throw something at him, put coat over his head, get between two closely parked cars, or dive under a car. You create distance, put space and objects between you until he makes a mistake and you get time to make a plan. Generally, sudden burst with a weapon will overwhelm even trained people so you need to get time and distance, or use no-space to smother.

If you train up the drills above you'll gain experience and flow better than trying to jump in and grab a sewing machine stabbing type attack. Yes it's hard to get someone trapped or pinned, but if you train from there and get a pin, you'll be in familiar territory with all your drilling and high aliveness.


2/21/11 1:01 AM
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Skpotamus
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We do something similar to WSP's post, but we don't stop if we get stabbed. We keep on going until we either get the knife away, access and deploy our own tools (firearm, own knife, etc), or get to the point where we are getting pumped in a vital area with the training knife. Usually even then we keep going. You can take a LOT of punishment from a knife wound, including fatal ones, and keep going for quite a while. Stopping when you get a single hit in makes people stop when they actually get cut or stuck.

Sucks for you, but if you get a potentially lethal stab, you might still be able to end the attacker before they get to your family or at least take them with you.

We also use some knife specific material, The Dog Bros/Suarez teaming Die Less Often series is great for knife defensive work as well as your own tool access, as is the red zone defense series and Michael Janichs Counter Blade Concepts work. Take those, and drill them in the scenario drilling you do. They work quite well.

I also recommend picking up Michael Janichs Contemporary knife targeting book for ideas on what is more important to keep safe, targets, etc.
2/22/11 11:47 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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The reason I say "Stop" after the opponent deploys or "stabs" you is that to continue is more of a scramble than learning to use grappling properly vs the knife in "unarmed v blade" training.

Try both ways and see what works for you.
2/25/11 5:48 AM
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Skpotamus
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I see your point, but learning how to scramble is an important part of training. It lets you get used to the idea of not winning all the time and fighting through bad spots.
2/25/11 10:23 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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I'd suggest that scrambling is increasing the chaos which is what you want to contain.

Are you learning to do a bjj-grappling scramble or are you trying to learn to deploy/defend against weapon/gun/knife when you have partial control?
2/26/11 9:37 AM
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Skpotamus
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Our focus is on controlling the opponents weapon and deploying our own tool(s) and survive.

An old maxim from working against knives is to expect to get cut. Having several guys in our gym that have been in knife encounters as LEO's and private citizens, they all got cut or stabbed at least once (with one exception), they kept on fighting and eventually won (survived).

Training to stop once you get a cut or stab on you might create better technique, but the reality is that perfect technique isn't always possible in the chaos of a real encounter. Once the fecal matter hits the rotating device, you need to be able to deal with the aftermath and what happens there as well as in the perfect scenario where you didn't slip on the gravel, trip over that bottle, lost your balance and your grip. Hence us training in that manner, more alive and chaotic. When things go correctly, it's great and the techs work well, when they don't, we keep on going and keep on fighting until we either come out on top, or get pumped enough with the knife in vital areas that we couldn't win/survive. Afterwards we try to analyze what happened to create that situation and build on it.
2/26/11 11:53 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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OK, I see the confusion...

You are probably trying to train like you 'roll' in bjj. IMO, the kind you want to do with the knife and deployment is more like a sophisticated 'three-step sparring' drill.

The whole objective is not to permit scrambling, high chaos, or getting cut during this drill. You and your partner are 'researching' ways to use high aliveness in a very tightly confined paradigm, i.e. you 'start' in grappling range, him on top, pinning your knife hand with both his hands, and then finding the safest most robust method of disarming and controlling.

You just change up the position. Him on top, you on top, him deploying, you deploying, him preventing your deployment, you preventing his, dissecting where you 'carry' to find the best method. If you're carrying in your front pants pocket it may be almost impossible to index your knife from the bottom, whereas an ankle carry might be hard to prevent.

In normal BJJ rolling you might allow some 'slush' in your movements. Grappling with two hands vs knife, you can have no slush or you get cut. It's done as a very tightly controlled rolling and if/when he gets deployed (unless you're baiting him) you stop and reset.

One drill is if you figure out where the guy is carrying (concealed) you kind of 'let' him go for the weapon, and when he does you pin the arm and throw on an armbar. You work this with some cooperation at first until you're very smooth. Another is if you're wall fighting and the guy gets loose and goes for the draw and you pin the arm/hand and use that as part of the submission. He's strongly motivated to keep his hand on the grip which makes your pin and submission even stronger.

These 'drills' have the advantage of being highly alive with resistance and intent, but limited since there is one goal and that's to deploy (or prevent same), so it's not chaotic and has little to no scrambling. You have to be very tight and fast, but also with extreme care.

Later, I'm sure advanced drilling could include some scrambling. The idea is to have a handful of extremely tight subs which you can work under a large variety of situations.

I think we're both on the same page though. It's all about liveness and functionalizing what you know. IRL, if chaos does ensue you just 'handle that' - you can't train it.




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