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JKD UnderGround >> Trapping ???


2/22/11 10:15 AM
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Joe Maffei
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I think that MMA is a perfect testing ground for your foundation fighting, which includes Trapping. The problem is that trapping is taught against another striker and not against grapplers.
IMHO Most of the JKD community has it backwards. Trapping is very valuable, but not used in its traditional manner. If you don’t re-evaluate how you interpreter trapping you will be just another JKD guy trying to do a Pak Sao against a beginner MMA guy and get dumped on your head. just saying….:-)

JM
2/22/11 2:44 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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According to what I've read, Roy Harris has developed a method to make trapping work.

Let's analyze trapping. What are the components?

You have several elements
1. Anticipation
2. Body positioning
3. Body inclination and foot position
4. One limb against two, or two on one
5. Rhythm, timing, speed of initiation
6. Follow up.
7. Range of fighting
8. Opponent's rhythm and tempo
9. Opponent's physical condition
10. Reflex speed

Here's a thought. Most people think of trapping as a way to 'bridge the gap'. You fake, draw a counter then half-beat off that counter as you zone in, get advantageous body position and using two-on-one you score.

But why not use trapping when the opponent is on the ropes and only half-aware? Why not use trapping off your back as a way to get an arm or a leg?

The biggest problem with modern concepts of JKD trapping is that the range in which it is trained (flow drills) is the range used in Wrestling (single collar tie, grip fighting) and wrestling is more dynamic and faster than trying to trap-to-grapple. It's simply been practiced with resisting opponents in an alive manner for much longer, and it involves the inside angle - you're grappling to trap, then going for a throw, trip or takedown.

The way to move on from here is to analyze just what the elements of trapping are, what makes it effective and if it can be developed to trump the single-collar tie range of Wrestling.

$0.02
2/23/11 7:37 AM
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Nasz
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Edited: 02/23/11 7:38 AM
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To me...Trapping is just taking away the barrier to hit the opponent. Nothing more and nothing less.

We can make it world science..but that my friends, doenst work!
2/23/11 9:37 AM
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Joe Maffei
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WP I would have to see Roy's method to comment...:-)

I have my own method and I will share a few things that make up this method

There are 3 elements that make up every trap

1. Lever
2. Trigger
3. Capture element.

without these 3 elements your trap will fail. "Always."

Traps can go from outside going in and inside going out.
Most people go outside going in which has the highest rate of failure.

The highest rate of success is inside going out, meaning you are a grappler who traps not a boxer who traps.

This is a start for folks who want to learn to trap with MMA guys. Use this concept and you will see exactly what I mean.

btw folks should not get upset when others put down trapping because it were those exact same people that provoked me to re-evaluate my own concepts of trapping so I am gratful for those people. thanks.

JM
2/23/11 5:25 PM
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Nasz
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I believe when you go for trapping a fight. You will get hit on the nose. Saying just fight! Box, defend yourself, attack and when a barrier is standing in your way. get rid of the barrier (trap) stick it and headbut his head off.

2/24/11 1:42 AM
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cprevost
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You are right Joe. All that's left to do is to prove it. Easy enough now with the proliferation of MMA events around. Train up some guys to trap and put them in the ring and let's see what happens. Nothing more needs to be said...
2/24/11 9:42 AM
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Joe Maffei
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cprevost some of my guys are already doing it. But you are absolutely right, it's like jit's seeing is believing. "Oh".....but there is one thing.....:-) there's always a catch.

You need to understand and be a grappler to begin with, that's what the old JKD/wing chun/Bruce wannabee's don't get.

Grappling is the key to making the traps work. Grappling gives you the trigger (the resistance). Look at the mouse trap, with out the spring the trap will not work the spring causes the resistance and without resistance you have no trap. Exactly what the trapping rebels complained about is exactly one of the elements needed to trap. They were right!!!!

The JKD community has a long way to go unless they can swallow their pride take Bruce off the pedestal and just realize that the MMA guy is not the enemy but the perfect subject to learn to trap.
2/24/11 10:51 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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I have seen some of Roy Harris' trapping progressions. 

In a nutshell, his initial complaint was that people only trained trapping against another trapping structure, even while sparring the other ranges against each other.  So he got together with some amateur boxers and did a lot of experimenting to figure out which trapping structures had value against boxing/kickboxing structures, and then went from there.

He still teaches Hubud, Chi Sao, and the lop sao/backfist drill as three staple drills, BUT he takes them into progressions FAR beyond anything else I've ever seen.  He uses them to teach the basic movements, and then contorts them and inserts them into boxing, clinch work, and more. 

I have seen some of his favorite entries against boxers, and I am impressed.  I have also had him do them to me in live sparring, and they were VERY effective.  Not only does he trap quite well, but he also funnels you down a path into his finishes (takedowns, big strikes, etc).  It feels about as helpless as rolling with him on the mat :)

I recall that a long time ago, his website listed his four level trapping progression as STOP:
  • Structure - learn the basic drills
  • Transitions - learn to switch between the drills, between left and right, and from the drills into and out of other ranges
  • Offensive and Defensive Footwork - use the tools extracted from the drills in motion
  • Pressure - focus on the application and release of pressure as the priority underlying the trapping
I expect he has a number of specific levels of progression within each of these.  I know that next week, we'll be training some of his 35 level Sumbrada progression (yes, really). 


2/24/11 12:49 PM
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cprevost
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I like your attitude Joe. I'm not sure about the trapping business but my thoughts on the issue have been poisoned by the chi Sao crew. Glad to see a jkd guy who isn't dragging the dead carcass around on his back.
2/24/11 10:08 PM
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phauna
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Post a video, please, I have no idea what any of you are talking about.
2/25/11 5:41 AM
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BigSifu
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 I consider myself a "JKD guy" and I'm always amazed at how fearful of change JKD guys are. I thought we were supposed to be innovative,creative,blah blah blah...

As a whole we've gotten very traditional. Stagnant even. Glad to see a meaningful discussion.
2/25/11 10:34 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Joe Maffei - WP I would have to see Roy's method to comment...:-)

I have my own method and I will share a few things that make up this method

Traps can go from outside going in and inside going out.
Most people go outside going in which has the highest rate of failure.

The highest rate of success is inside going out, meaning you are a grappler who traps not a boxer who traps.
JM
This is exactly what I said:

"wrestling is more dynamic and faster than trying to trap-to-grapple. It's simply been practiced with resisting opponents in an alive manner for much longer, and it involves the inside angle - you're grappling to trap,"
 
2/25/11 10:36 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Yoshida4Life - It is easy to see why JKD guys are fearful of change.
It is the same reason why nearly all professional martial artists become fearful of change.
Professional JKD guys are in a business, and their livelihood depends on that business.
If someone develops a very different, successful m martial artists, not just JKD guys.

 This is one of the pitfalls of the TMA - fearful and resistance of (some) change. They do embrace some change. Guro Dan incorporated FMA and Indonesian skills. But they are a lot like 'anti-grappling' guys. Trying to make their system work within the system and not going outside of it.

Good point.

2/25/11 11:58 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Not trying to be rude but, personally I don't give a flyen crap about who's fearful of change, what Dan did, how Roy traps boxer's, the business end etc. My goal was to clinch up and put the tip of my elbow "cleanly" on the opponents face using three simple elements
Lever
Trigger
Capture/smash element. simple as the mouse trap, it has to be.

Analyzing posture, dissecting footwork, 300 trapping combo's forgetaboutit

Identify what is a, your lever, use the natural resistance of the opponent as the trigger (spring), release it, then be waiting with the smashing/capture element. ( tip of your elbow, headbutt etc) it's easy to insert the mousetrap if you already understand grappling, but if you don't you WILL get dumped on your head.
2/25/11 12:35 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Trying to bring it back on Joe's topic, there are times when I see (as a spectator) chances for trapping in an MMA fight.

But the question is, can you do the trapping against an opponent who knows what you're doing, in all settings, and can you force your trap or do you have to wait for it.

A forced trap on an opponent who does not train is pretty easy to set up, depending on if he's waiting for you to initiate.

Otherwise, you need to be able to see weaknesses in the opponent's structure, and use methods to get into range. The best methods include standard wrestling tie ups then untying and getting the grapple-to-trap.

I'd suggest, Joe, you do a video of your method if you want cogent replies. :)


2/25/11 4:26 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Up from a nap with some thoughts on this.

Joe talks about lever, trigger, trap, but I've used more subtle traps. I use a soft entry where the opponent doesn't get that I'm trapping him.

Some traps don't require a fast motion, such as a 'hair trap' to control the head.

For me, the 'entry into traps' against those who don't train, has been FMA and triple timing and insertions. I don't use the JKD-type traps, since they're a bit too formulaic.

$0.02
2/25/11 9:52 PM
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Original JKD
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Trapping is a two man operation. ?"At the high stage of JKD there is no touching, no blocking. The touching is my fist against your face and my foot against your body." TW
2/26/11 10:16 AM
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Joe Maffei
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LOL....;WP you seem to be the most vocal on the thread so my main attention is with you. I'm sorry to laugh but the trapping community JKD and all has been so conditioned to see and discuss trapping so intellectually, sophisticated, dissecting, analyzing that I laugh because my method (if you want to call it that) is really not my method at all and it's as old as the hills and it is so stupid silly, blue collar, commanman, that when folks see it they say " is that all it is? then when they see that it can be inserted every where in the clinch, that's when the light turns on.
I will do a very short vid, very short vid. Ya see part of me wants people to see this, but there is a part of me that just wants my fighters to use it....if ya get my drift.....:-)
It may take a while for the vid because it doesn't really matter who see's it so. But guys use this method in part sporadically already in MMA they just have not identified it to the point that it can be inserted and utilized in many areas.

As far as TW...again forgetaboutit...
2/26/11 11:32 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Joe, thanks for agreeing to do a short video. I think we are on the same page.

I've used a trap on dozens of people and it's always worked. It's very subtle and when I reach for them it's even 'gentle', then suddenly they are in a bent-over guillotine and unable to do anything for the moment. I use a sinawali type movement to secure the trap. Not being forceful at all no one has ever resisted nor has anyone failed to be put in the sub at the end.

I'll consider doing a vid of it once you post yours. :)


2/27/11 9:07 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Dude my time out hear is morning when I have my coffee, so I'll get to the vid when I can if that's cool, but don't wait for me bro, if you have the time and think people might get something out of it, bang something out.

But I'll tell ya, I never catch/trap an animal every time.
Even with the 3 elements set just right, sometimes the animal gets away or maybe it just got grazed, or maybe its instincts/reflexes were on that time and it took the bate and screwed, or maybe it was just his lucky day.

My thoughts on setting traps is the same as a punch, ya don't connect every time, ya don't get a knock out every time, but if you know the animal's habitat, (grappling range)Where it eats, where it sleeps, (the techniques being used) and you can blend in with your environment (be a grappler, good bait) the chances of setting traps and being successful will be a high % if you are bating 500 you are having a good season.

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