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HolyGround >> Setting a Trap for God


2/22/11 6:06 PM
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jimmy23
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0871591243
2/22/11 6:09 PM
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jimmy23
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 Really interesting book. The author is a student of George Lamsa, and examines the Lords Prayer from the original script in Aramaic and in the context of the idioms of the time. This offers a view of Christianity that is FAR different than the one I was taught in the Southern Baptist church as a child. I confess to being pretty moved by the book and the authors  approach to prayer, or rather,  Jesus's  approach to prayer
2/22/11 6:13 PM
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Grakman
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 Can you give us a summary, jimmy?
2/22/11 7:09 PM
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jimmy23
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so far,he says much of the context of th prayer is lost if reference to original aramaic and the culture is ignored

When Jesus said to pray in his name, the original wording translates more as "pray in the manner that I do"  - the author says that  literally praying in the name of Jesus,as I was taught to do, is like telling an atom to split in the name of Einstein  - it mise the point completely. the purpose ofprayer is to open oneself spiritually to the Divine, not to petition for cool stuff or try to impress god with fancy wording


Also, the name Jesus used for Father was more like the word "Daddy" - the effect was to see the divine as immediate and directly involved in the daily life ofpeople, rather than as a remote deity or emperor far away in the clouds.  


I am only about a third of the way through the book
2/23/11 8:06 PM
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LiveWire
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 ttt
3/1/11 8:54 PM
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5pointer
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i seem to have a read a similair book after the prayer of jabez spread rampant...
3/1/11 9:09 PM
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jimmy23
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 strangely enough someone just mentioned that too not half an hour ago
3/2/11 1:23 AM
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jimmy23
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 ok, finished the book, and it has truly deepened the Lords prayer for me


might not for anyone else, though
3/2/11 12:07 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 03/02/11 12:14 PM
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jimmy23 - 
the purpose of prayer is to open oneself spiritually to the Divine, not to petition for cool stuff or try to impress god with fancy wording.


i try to look at prayer like that. it's like meditation. to think that words themselves are what God listens too is silly. God already knows what you need. The act of prayer opens your heart to His light.

But I still use certain 'prayers' from a prayer book to gain focus and a state of mind.

i will have to check out this book. another book you should read is The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology. It talks about how monks pray 'ceaselessly'.
3/4/11 4:46 PM
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zealot66
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 Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.
3/4/11 5:23 PM
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Grakman
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zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.

If God decides that, if you do such and such or pray such and such, He will do X, but if you do this or this He will do Y, is the changing his mind? And do you think that this is possible even if God knows the outcome before hand?

How does free will fit into it?
3/4/11 5:37 PM
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zealot66
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Grakman - 
zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.

If God decides that, if you do such and such or pray such and such, He will do X, but if you do this or this He will do Y, is the changing his mind? And do you think that this is possible even if God knows the outcome before hand?

How does free will fit into it?

 I dont see how God can change his mind if he knows the outcome before. Free will ? 2000 years and we still dont know.......
3/4/11 8:10 PM
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mmanthebay
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Intercession anyone? Phone Post
3/5/11 3:12 AM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 - 
Grakman - 
zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.

If God decides that, if you do such and such or pray such and such, He will do X, but if you do this or this He will do Y, is the changing his mind? And do you think that this is possible even if God knows the outcome before hand?

How does free will fit into it?

 I dont see how God can change his mind if he knows the outcome before. Free will ? 2000 years and we still dont know.......

 Does God see outcomes "before" as it were?  Maybe in a truly free world in which creatures can make themselves the unfolding of events is unknown to him until such a point where they unfold.  Or maybe, being completely out of time, he can make adjustments at the outset (so to speak) that allow things to change.  


3/5/11 10:29 AM
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zealot66
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 Yeah, but does in that schematic, does God change ?
3/11/11 12:35 AM
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Sliced
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zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.


Sorry, but God changes his mind several times in the Bible.
3/11/11 2:07 AM
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mmanthebay
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I think it's biblically correct to believe God invites man to intercede with the "hope" of changing his mind. Phone Post
3/12/11 12:35 PM
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zealot66
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Sliced - 
zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.


Sorry, but God changes his mind several times in the Bible.

 This is a long road to go down. I know that the writers related God as changing his mind but outside the confines of biblical inerrancy, can an omnipotent being change his mind. Working within the confines of OT and NT inerrancy, you have a lot of contradictions.
3/13/11 5:13 AM
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Sliced
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Well, as an atheist, I don't believe in the inerrancy bit, so that's not an issue for me ;).
3/14/11 11:05 AM
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Bench
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Looks an interesting read. Thanks. Phone Post
3/14/11 9:28 PM
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770mdm
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zealot66 -  Kind of like CS Lewis's premise that Prayer doesnt change God, it changes us. I have always been confused on evangelicals teaching on prayer that if we Pray in Jesus's name, we can command God to 'change his mind'. I dont think an omnipotent all knowing being is capable of changing his mind.

In my own world of prayer I agree with this because I wouldn't be so bold as to think I'd ever change G-d's mind.  

"When I was a kid I prayed to G-d for a bike.  Then I realized he doesn't work that way so I stole one instead and prayed for forgiveness."

But then we read the whole episode of Moses going back up on Mt. Sinai after the Golden Calf incident, coming down on Yom Kippur, pleading with G-d for 40 days so G-d won't obliterate the Jewish people and re-start G-ds people from Moses' lineage, is an indicator that we too can change a Heavenly decree.  Yes?  
3/15/11 5:33 AM
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mmanthebay
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not that we can change a decree, but maybe be involved in the will of Gpd Phone Post
3/28/11 11:48 AM
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figure four
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prayer shows god our love, hope, and trust in what he can do for us.

but if we don't pray...
we don't receive what we may need...

we were created weak so as to enable us to rely on him...

we are not to recite no prayers from a book...it should come from your heart
3/31/11 6:16 PM
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GojuGrappler
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Prayer is talking to god, meditation is listening Phone Post
3/31/11 6:38 PM
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gord96
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figure four - we are not to recite no prayers from a book...it should come from your heart


what about the Lord's Prayer? Is that wrong in your opinion. It's from a book.

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