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HolyGround >> Setting a Trap for God


3/31/11 7:43 PM
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prof
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Ridgeback - 
 Does God see outcomes "before" as it were?  Maybe in a truly free world in which creatures can make themselves the unfolding of events is unknown to him until such a point where they unfold.  Or maybe, being completely out of time, he can make adjustments at the outset (so to speak) that allow things to change.  



Kinda trashes that bit about God's omniscience (or if you prefer, vastly superior perspective). How can we be confident God has a "plan" (as many Christians assert) if God can't predict human actions any more than we can?

Human decisions can blow up the earth in nuclear war tomorrow...or not. God apparently would be as clueless as us about what is going to happen. Not much of a "God."

Further, if such free will is necessary for us to be moral creatures - a free will necessitating God's blindness to knowing our choices - that would extend to the after life as well. How could we..or God...know what things will be like in the afterlife, populated by human souls who have shown the propensity for evil and whose choices God can not foreknow? Throw away any of those prophecies in the bible or depictions of the future afterlife....

Prof.
3/31/11 11:46 PM
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Grakman
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 Is it possible for God to have a 'plan' and still allow free will?

Why would God having a plan for us abnegate our free will? If God said 'Thou shalt go to New York before thou hast past thy thirtieth birthday,' and stops there, I could go by plane, trane, car, boat, or walk, depending on how much time remained. I would be following God's 'plan' with plenty of room for free will.

It's like a role playing video game. There is a created world in which the characters can roam, encounter other characters and non-player characters, interact with each other with elements of time, objects, various competing objectives - but there are still boundaries and limits, and the Game Designer can program into the game any number of elements, even randomly, for the characters to interact with to bring the game to a  conclusion, while still allowing free will.

If presented witha  scenario where I must choose from one of four doors, I can exercise 'free will' to choose a door, but I am still limited by the plan which says I can only choose from these four doors and no more.
4/1/11 3:31 PM
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Ridgeback
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prof - 
Ridgeback - 
 Does God see outcomes "before" as it were?  Maybe in a truly free world in which creatures can make themselves the unfolding of events is unknown to him until such a point where they unfold.  Or maybe, being completely out of time, he can make adjustments at the outset (so to speak) that allow things to change.  



Kinda trashes that bit about God's omniscience (or if you prefer, vastly superior perspective). How can we be confident God has a "plan" (as many Christians assert) if God can't predict human actions any more than we can?

Human decisions can blow up the earth in nuclear war tomorrow...or not. God apparently would be as clueless as us about what is going to happen. Not much of a "God."

Further, if such free will is necessary for us to be moral creatures - a free will necessitating God's blindness to knowing our choices - that would extend to the after life as well. How could we..or God...know what things will be like in the afterlife, populated by human souls who have shown the propensity for evil and whose choices God can not foreknow? Throw away any of those prophecies in the bible or depictions of the future afterlife....

Prof.

 That is an odd response considering I didn't commit to a particular alternative.  I am remaining true to the primitive Christian conception of the universe, which they believed was under the rulership of dark powers and essentially had become a shadow reality not in keeping with God's original will.  That God can achieve his ends in the ultimate sense does not mean that he micromanages every human decision or even how the universe unfolds.  The way you describe God sounds like so much Calvinist claptrap.  It almost seems like the only way you can conceive of Christianity is from the very young and historically aberrant fundamentalist branches.  
4/3/11 4:00 PM
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prof
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I didn't talk of God micro-managing anything. I spoke of the logical implications of your concept that God could not predict the actions of free willed Creatures. It implies the Creator Of The Universe is no better than we are in predicting outcomes dependent upon human choice.

God, are we going to blow up the world tomorrow in a nuclear war...or is it safe to make plans for the future?

God: Shrugs. "Beats me."

But then you say maybe God is out of time (incoherent as that is). If that's the case, doesn't that mean God CAN know the outcome of free willed choices "before" they occur?
It's a typical Christian assertion to describe this as reasons God knows the future. Which is it?

As for dark forces ruling the universe...what dark forces?

Isn't God the Alpha Being? Instigator/First Cause/Supreme Creator?

Did God create evil beings more powerful than He is? Why would any rational entity do such a thing?

Or did God create super powerful beings that, of their own free will, rebelled against Goodness and became evil? Such that this has become a huge problem for God and his earthly creation?

How could a God be so stupid? "Let's seee...I'll create super powerful beings who can choose to be evil and totally F#CK up my work. I wonder if they'll turn evil? Oh...damn...didn't see that coming!"

WTF?

And if these "dark forces" do not approach God's level of power then all that does is force the Problem Of Evil/Suffering back to God again. If God has the power to refrain these evil beings from tormenting His creation...why the hell doesn't He do it?
If God just sits back and lets the universe "unfold" as you imply, which means evil forces wreaking havoc on us, why should we ever consider such a God "Good?" What if someone's excuse for not interfering with the abduction of a child was "Look, I'm not out to micromanage things. I'm just letting things unfold as they will...."

See, Ridgeback, I'm not simply appealing to some other version of Christianity. I'm taking what YOU have written and unravelled possible implications. If you say "no, my theology does not imply that" then tell me how it does not. How does it answer the problems I bring up?

Prof.
4/3/11 9:02 PM
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prof
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Ridgeback,

Sorry, I don't mean to seem like I "demand" you answer the questions. Rather, I'm just looking at the types of questions that arise from what you wrote.

Prof.

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