UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> Following Jesus


2/22/11 6:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3726
 
What does it mean to follow Jesus? Most acknowledge that it means to feed the poor, care for the sick, visit those in prison, love their neighbors, trust in God and so on.

But should we also follow Jesus in confronting the religious powers of our day like he did? He called the Pharisses vipers and white washed sepulchres; he threw the money changers out of the Temple and turned much of Judaism's doctrine and theology on it's head, e.g. violating the Sabbath, preventing stoning of the woman caught in adultery, etc.

Why do we leave these types of actions out of following Jesus today, and what would be examples of following his example if we were to integret such in our lives today?

I don't have the answers and this is not a setup for debate or trap for me to reveal my own beliefs. I'm genuinely curious as to what the HG has to say on this topic.
2/23/11 9:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27429
I don't leave those actions out

and yes standing against the powers, both religious and secular is part of following Christ.

rev
2/23/11 10:59 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hypnos
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/10/02
Posts: 1977
Learning Humility. Ive come across a lot of knowledgeable Christians that are puffed up and borderline arrogant because they know so much about the Bible and look down upon others who lack knowledge. Phone Post
2/23/11 7:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27430
its interesting that Jesus picked a bunch of working class non educated folk to be his disciples :)

rev
2/23/11 10:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3729
reverend john - its interesting that Jesus picked a bunch of working class non educated folk to be his disciples :)

rev

 I remember in one of our conversations that you pointed out Jesus' humble origins (illegitimate birth in a stable) and how that identified Jesus with the lower and middle class people.  Good lesson, sometimes I do pay attention around here. :)
2/24/11 11:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
100 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/24/11 11:52 AM
Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 12474
Hypnos - Learning Humility. Ive come across a lot of knowledgeable Christians that are puffed up and borderline arrogant because they know so much about the Bible and look down upon others who lack knowledge. Phone Post


i hear ya there. i find that many folks think that how well they are following Jesus or worshiping Jesus is equivalent to person's biblical knowledge. people seem to worship the Bible. The Rev's point about the disciples is right on point.
2/24/11 6:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6986
 To me, it means to live my life with a certain set of morals, that line i won't cross, as i explore this world i live in.
2/24/11 10:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mmanthebay
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/08
Posts: 237
For me to seek a personal relationship through prayer and worship. Love God, Love people, and develop in Christ Phone Post
4/21/11 1:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3894
 I wanted to bump this thread and re-ask the question, how do we go about confronting today's pharisees in our own lives?  I don't mean this like the 'we each have our own cross to bear' and consider a bad case of acne before a date our cross, I mean like how does one actually DO the real thing? Rev?
4/21/11 8:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27517
Well our culture is different, and the religious powers have less power than the secular powers, but they are mingled so completely that you can't differentiate them either. I think living prophetically, living against the norm is a good way. I think speaking out against in justice is another. I think standing up for the poor and the marginalized is another. And even getting arrested by breaking the laws when they conflict the law of love. ie I will feed the hungry and the city can kiss my ass

rev
4/23/11 1:09 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ridgeback
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 23000
Grakman -  I wanted to bump this thread and re-ask the question, how do we go about confronting today's pharisees in our own lives?  I don't mean this like the 'we each have our own cross to bear' and consider a bad case of acne before a date our cross, I mean like how does one actually DO the real thing? Rev?

 Where do you get that you are called to do this in particular.  Following Jesus doesn't mean you have his authority in all things.  Certainly you wouldn't forgive the sins of others or accept worship.  I tend to think this is the business of Jesus in the Findal Judgment.   It isn't too hard to imagine a Publican thanking God that he is not as these Pharisees and totally miss the point of the illustration.  
4/23/11 2:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27521
Yeah, just let injustice continue in the name of the church powers that be, because we are supposed to be humble

Talk about missing the point of the illustration

rev
4/24/11 11:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zealot66
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11700
Hypnos -  Learning Humility. Ive come across a lot of knowledgeable Christians that are puffed up and borderline arrogant because they know so much about the Bible and look down upon others who lack knowledge. Phone Post
This I find comical. The majority of lay people who spend their time studying dogmatic doctrines presented as truth and scorn other learning are usually very insecure people and rude about their beliefs. They are perhaps the most ignorant of them all.
 
4/24/11 2:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hypnos
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/10/02
Posts: 2073
So what's your point? Phone Post
4/24/11 5:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ridgeback
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 23006
 Seriously Grakman, where are you getting that you are called to "confront Pharisees?"  I know of no scriptural injunctions to do so.
4/24/11 7:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27523
how about follow me? How about Paul doing it? and Peter?

We are called to confront injustice, Jesus did and was killed for it, and calls us to pick up our cross.

rev
4/24/11 8:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ridgeback
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 23011
 I am not talking to you.  You always start fights with me.
4/25/11 12:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3908
reverend john - how about follow me? How about Paul doing it? and Peter?

We are called to confront injustice, Jesus did and was killed for it, and calls us to pick up our cross.

rev

 Hm... I met need to re-read Acts, but did they 'confront' the Pharisees or did their preaching bring them in to conflict with them? It's one thing to butt up against authority through your activities and another to target them specifically for confrontation.

What about Paul's injunction to obey the authorities as God places governments in order to constrain evil and so on?
4/25/11 12:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27526
Both, Paul directly confronts Pharisaical teaching in many of his letters. In acts he confronts the sadducees. Peter tells the religious authorities that they will obey God rather than them. ect.

As for Romans, there are many authorities that believe that piece of scripture is added later, and is not Paul's writing. Which actually has some strong points to it as Paul was executed by the Roman government for treason. In addition, Paul always followed the Spirit whether it contradicted to the government or not. In addition, logically, we did not ask anyone to submit to Hitler, or Pol Pot or Idi Amin did we?

If you do a bit more research you will see that Jesus was quite aggressive towards the authorities, and the gospel writers wrote in aggressive ways as well. If the church does not stand up against evil, both outside and inside of its walls it ceases to be the church.

And Ridgeback, I usually ignore you accept when you are saying something ridiculous, which is not usually. To say that we are not called to confront legalism, and fake piety is not only stupid, it is hypocritical as you do it all the time on this very board

rev
4/25/11 1:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ridgeback
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 23019
 It isn't remotely hypocritical to get into it with religious types over perceived legalism and a lack of charity vs. questioning whether we are called by Jesus to "confront Pharisees."   I fight with atheists on the OG all the time as well, but probably should just ignore them all since they "know not what they do."
4/25/11 11:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27529
You will bend over backwards to make yourself right but in this case you know you are not right. When the religious leaders oppress others we are not following Jesus if we do not stand up against them. When the catholic church in Philadelphia was trying to kick homeless families living in it's long empty building out into the street the follower if Jesus had to stand up against this injustice. To say otherwise is ridiculous

Rev
4/26/11 4:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3928
 Would taking part in pro-life protests, supporting laws to allow prayer in school, supporting traditional marriage and so on, all in the political arena, be part of 'fighting the powers?'
4/26/11 7:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27539
Well it would seem to me that the powers are those that impose their will upon others. I believe Christians that really care about abortion should be offering to adopt unwanted children, running homes for unwed mothers, and caring for people. Rallying to change laws is being complicit with the powers in my opinion. It seems to me that Jesus subverts the political arena by operating outside of it, rather than through it. Otherwise we become the powers.

but that is my perspective.

rev
4/28/11 12:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 3943
 The Bible and Poverty
4/28/11 2:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zealot66
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11709
Hypnos -  So what's your point? Phone Post

 I was basically agreeing with you that this is one of the most distasteful things about the church.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.