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PhilosophyGround >> Illegal Aliens vs. Human Beings


2/23/11 9:39 AM
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Voluntaryist
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The belief that politicians own everything is demonstrated even more dramatically in the concept of immigration ‘laws.’ The idea that a human being needs permission from politicians to set foot anywhere in an entire country—the notion that it can be a ‘crime’ for someone to step across an invisible line between one authoritarian jurisdiction into another—implies that the entire country is the property of the ruling class. If a citizen is not allowed to hire a so-called ‘illegal alien,’ is not allowed to trade with him, is not even allowed to invite an ‘illegal’ into his own home, then that individual citizen owns nothing, and the politicians own everything.

I piss on your arbitrary lines in the sand.
2/24/11 9:28 AM
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Voluntaryist
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You miss the point, do you understand 'private property'? My house is my private property, I can do with it what i choose so long as I am not harming anyone or infringing upon anyone elses property. Are you assuming this made up idea of 'government' owns property? They can say who can come onto the land mass known as the united states of america? That makes no sense, how can a legal fiction that produces nothing own property? Anything government has they have stolen, that is in no way legitimate ownership. So, since government is by definition illegitimate, they have no say. Individuals have say over what they own. If you don't want to allow certain human beings onto your property you are free to do so as long as you are harming no one, but YOU cannot force other people to do the same.

If you are indeed upset about so-called 'illegal aliens', look to your government...they are the problem, they are the cause. Check this out: let's say you have an outside cat, and every night you put out a big bowl of food for your cat. Then other neighborhood cats start coming around and eating out of the bowl of food. Then you start complaining and yelling at the cats to go away and stop eating the food.....Maybe you should stop giving out free food!?! The US government offers up the welfare and then wonders why so many people snatch it up. I understand what you are saying, you don't like the free riders, nor do i, but there are far more so-called american citizens on the free rider boat than so called 'illegals'. End welfare.

Also, the only way to completely stop human beings from crossing those arbitrary lines is to have a full blown police state. And I for one certainly do not want to pay for that, do you?
2/24/11 12:41 PM
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vermonter
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Voluntaryist,

Your use of rhetoric is inspiring, but, as I mentioned In the "hierarch is backwards" thread, is mainly good at galvanizing support from believers, or people ignorant of a topic. Unfortunately your use of logic as a means of discussion is limited, and the facts seem to be even more absent. This is likely to make your position weak in the eyes of logicians or philosophers.

I'd like to look at your original post point by point:

"The belief that politicians own everything"

Huh? Who says this? Sounds like a strawman to me...

"is demonstrated even more dramatically"

Than what?

"in the concept of immigration 'laws.'"

In philosophy, single quotes usually designate concepts. I'm not sure why the word "laws" is in single quotes here, but presumably you mean "the concept of 'immigration laws.'" Also, as a premise, immigration laws alone do not logically conclude to politicians owning everything, even with your continued discussion.

"The idea that a human being needs permission from politicians to set foot anywhere in an entire country--the notion that it can be a 'crime' for someone to step across an invisible line between one authoritarian jurisdiction into another--implies that the entire country is the property of the ruling class."

Doesn't it actually imply (or rather, is actual fact), that laws are set up to maintain, protect and control both the public property of a particular group, such as a nation and maintain the right to the private property contained therein? I suppose immigration laws could imply a lot of things, but I'm not sure you grasp what they actually are in place for. I'm not saying that these laws are necessarily the best way to perform the aims they are in place for, but rather that I'm not sure many people would agree with your believed implication.

"If a citizen is not allowed to hire a so-called 'illegal alien,' is not allowed to trade with him, is not even allowed to invite an 'illegal' into his own home, then that individual citizen owns nothing, and the politicians own everything."
What about private property, which you mention in your very next post? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that you mean only public property, but then I'd agree that no individual owns public property. That's what makes it public. I also agree that we designate entities to maintain public property for our mutual benefit. This point is either incorrect, or trivial as it is written.

Additionally, I'm not sure you understand what laws do, or even what they are. Sometimes the agreements between people inconvenience, or even seem unfair to the individual, but they are just that: formalized public agreements. Just because I'm limited in what actions I can take in certain respects does not mean that I am repressed, and it certainly does not follow that I lack private ownership of anything. Again, I'm not claiming that this system, or that system is superior, simply that your conclusion does not follow logically from your only premise.

"I piss on your arbitrary lines in the sand."

Again, rhetorical and a bit of a strawman. Thankfully, you can't legally piss on anything of mine, irrespective of how arbitrary you believe it to be.
2/24/11 2:48 PM
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Voluntaryist
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I guess you are the 'self-declared authority' on logic and philosophy? Good thing for me, I don't believe in 'authority' nor do I believe in hitting the shift key when inserting my 'quotes'.

Maybe you are the 'authority' on what laws do or what they are? 'Laws' are ideas... ideas from sociopaths that believe they have some kind of legitimate 'authority' over other human beings. You said they are 'formalized public agreements'... Could you tell me when I made this 'agreement' with these so-called 'authorities'?
...and please don't throw out the cliche, 'if you don't like it, then get out!'.

When one person objects to the level of taxation or other forcible control being inflicted upon him by those in 'government', others who are also being oppressed will often condemn the one who is objecting, telling him that if he does not like how he is being treated, he should leave the country. Maligning a fellow victim of coercion for complaining about it is a sure sign that a person actually takes pride in his own enslavement.

I am not interested in paying for my own enslavement.
2/25/11 1:04 PM
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vermonter
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Edited: 02/25/11 1:07 PM
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"I guess you are the 'self-declared authority' on logic and philosophy? Good thing for me, I don't believe in 'authority' nor do I believe in hitting the shift key when inserting my 'quotes'."

Again, perfect example of a strawman (and i'm choosing to ignore your entire paragraph where you "defeat" an argument that was never made that makes up the lion's share of your last post), and a sad one at that. I never declared myself as an authority, merely pointed out that you failed to use logic or fact in your argument, and you continue to do the same in your second post. You're welcome to disagree but instead you get defensive and set up up an authority strawman and claim to not believe in authority?

I'm happy to discuss your post when you are, but i suspect you'd rather rant and rave, which is apparently the only reason you set up your account.
2/25/11 6:01 PM
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Voluntaryist
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You asked me if I knew what 'laws' were, I said I do know what laws are and explained what they are using logic and facts. Where is the strawman? How many times do you plan on using the word strawman? I am not looking to rant and rave, i'm looking to have some discussions, specifically about so-called 'authorities' and people who believe in that superstition calling human beings 'illegal aliens' for this thread...but apparently the only reason you are commenting on this thread is to use the word strawman as much as possible.

Explain to me your logic for calling human beings 'illegal aliens'...show me your facts. Show me your evidence that laws are formalized public aggreements.

Or, better yet, just throw some more strawmans at me.
3/2/11 3:53 PM
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Subadie
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Voluntaryist: I truly mean no offense, but: What exactly are you trying to say ? What is your point ?

It seems that perhaps you are just ranting and raving (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I also get the feeling that you are trying to say something. If in fact you are tryiing to make a point, can you please clarify what it is ? Thanks
3/2/11 4:31 PM
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Subadie
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Never mind. I just read your thread about logic and reason, and I guess I can see where you were going...I thought you were trying to make some kind of anarchistic statement. And indeed you were
5/25/11 4:09 PM
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Voluntaryist
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My ultimate point is government is illegitimate..

"government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." -Frederick Bastiat

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