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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> I'LL GIVE YOU A MEDAL NOW GET ON THE MAT


2/24/11 11:38 AM
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gbutts
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Last weekend at the Jr BJJ Pan Americans 4 out of 5 girls my in 13 year daughter (Erin) pull out of her division because they didnot want to fight her. I was told three of coaches attempted to have Erin remove from the division so their girls could recieve medals; the event organizers told them to go pound sand. The other coach said erin was to skilled for the that division (yellow/organe). WTF, whatever happen to wanting to compete against better people.These girls were the same age and heavier than Erin. I think the problem layes with these bjj clubs so worry about a medal count and protecting their image. "It doesn't look good win a judo person can win at bjj event"
2/24/11 1:37 PM
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lol. What was their complaint/argument to the event organizers? That she was "too good"? Sandbagging?? Man, that's a shitty thing to say/do when it's grown adults, let alone when its kids who're supposed to be learning life lessons and having FUN!!

Nevertheless, maybe it's a bit of karma biting judo in the butt re: our treatment and prejudice against wrestlers? Reading Nishioka's article from way back and the IJF (Naidan) rule changes were an eye-opener for me.
2/24/11 7:15 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I could see a local. BUt at the Junior Pan Ams? Arn't these girls suppose to be the best of the talent? It is all those boys she "wupped up on". So I can understand. The coach was protecting his student and not wanting to answer to any parent why he let their daughter fight Erin. Its cool Gary. Erin has their respect.
2/24/11 8:33 PM
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^I agree re: respect(fear). The "is it better to be loved or feared" scene from A Bronx Tale comes to mind.

But 'protecting' kids at *any* tournament, let alone a big/national level one? I dunno, man. I'm no world-beater that I'd ever have traveled to/competed in these big name tournaments, but I can't remember a time when I've seen kids in either judo or wrestling tournaments *not* smile whether they won 1st place, battled but still fell short in a tough draw, or went out and got ipponed/pinned in their only match(es). Why? Because the idea...especially for kids...is to have fun(just being on the mat) and always do their best...thus instilling good sportsmanship and the life lesson that since you can't/won't always win it's the effort and experience(s) that are most important. So, when a coach/parent is out there complaining and petitioning to have another (*junior*)competitor removed from the tournament to 'protect' their kid(s)/school(s) from a 'loss', it's bullshit. Period. Because by doing so you're denying them the joy/benefit of participation in all its forms AND you skew their perception of sportsmanship by *showing* them that winning is most important/the only acceptable outcome. And that's just not cool...yet I've seen enough of it at bjj/grappling tournaments to think that it's a disturbing trend.
2/24/11 9:49 PM
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gbutts
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judoblackbelt - I could see a local. BUt at the Junior Pan Ams? Arn't these girls suppose to be the best of the talent? It is all those boys she "wupped up on". So I can understand. The coach was protecting his student and not wanting to answer to any parent why he let their daughter fight Erin. Its cool Gary. Erin has their respect.


The funny thing is that one of my student's parent ask me to block the youtube video's of their son until after this tournament so people wouldn't move into other division. I told him that these are kids and it isn't that serious. I guess I was wrong.

When crystal was 8-12 years old people wouldn't let their kids compete against her it was very frustrating and I think it slowed her development as a judo player. Erin needs to compete so she can improve. The girl she fought was an orange belt and alot heavier but erin didn't care she just want to compete. Erin won and learned how to deal with pressure from a bigger person.

I think these people don't see the big picture (fun and development) regarding kiddy tournaments.

2/24/11 9:52 PM
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gbutts
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Missing Glove Tape - ^I agree re: respect(fear). The "is it better to be loved or feared" scene from A Bronx Tale comes to mind.

But 'protecting' kids at *any* tournament, let alone a big/national level one? I dunno, man. I'm no world-beater that I'd ever have traveled to/competed in these big name tournaments, but I can't remember a time when I've seen kids in either judo or wrestling tournaments *not* smile whether they won 1st place, battled but still fell short in a tough draw, or went out and got ipponed/pinned in their only match(es). Why? Because the idea...especially for kids...is to have fun(just being on the mat) and always do their best...thus instilling good sportsmanship and the life lesson that since you can't/won't always win it's the effort and experience(s) that are most important. So, when a coach/parent is out there complaining and petitioning to have another (*junior*)competitor removed from the tournament to 'protect' their kid(s)/school(s) from a 'loss', it's bullshit. Period. Because by doing so you're denying them the joy/benefit of participation in all its forms AND you skew their perception of sportsmanship by *showing* them that winning is most important/the only acceptable outcome. And that's just not cool...yet I've seen enough of it at bjj/grappling tournaments to think that it's a disturbing trend.


These coaches just taught their kids to let fear control them.
2/24/11 10:45 PM
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Edited: 02/24/11 10:55 PM
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gbutts - Erin needs to compete so she can improve. The girl she fought was an orange belt and alot heavier but erin didn't care she just want to compete. Erin won and learned how to deal with pressure from a bigger person.

gbutts - These coaches just taught their kids to let fear control them.

Exactly my point re: the joy/benefit(s) of participation. By always going out there to do their best kids have the opportunity to experience winning, losing, being a good sport, the pressure of competition, exposure to skill/technique that further prepares them for the next stage, meeting new people(judo friends and/or contacts for interclub training/competitions), etc. So, by a coach/parent 'protecting' their kids from a little thing like losing what they're actually doing is stunting their growth and again telling them that since winning is most important, it's okay to quit/give in to fear(ie: not compete), complain or otherwise show poor sportsmanship.

Not good. And Dan Gable's little spiel on aggression seems fitting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olpmZTFoAPE

Is there anything wrong with being a fierce competitor? None whatsoever. Can everybody handle it re: the pressure of wanting/trying to be the best(ie: an olympic quest)? Of course not. But none of that, including Gable's(and others) attitudes towards competition, is a bad thing with regard to having fun/trying your best every time you get on the mat. And it's that attitude that makes every competitor a 'winner' regardless of the success(es) that have in their sport.



*edit* stinkin' quotes!!
2/24/11 10:51 PM
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Empire
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can you bump her up to a higher level?

give her a blue and let her beat them. if she is indeed owning her division everytime, it's time to bump her up, right?

steel sharpens steel. they are like bronze. time to find some steel.
2/25/11 8:09 AM
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gbutts
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Empire - can you bump her up to a higher level?

give her a blue and let her beat them. if she is indeed owning her division everytime, it's time to bump her up, right?

steel sharpens steel. they are like bronze. time to find some steel.



she only 13 years old, putting her in with blue would asurely limit her chances to compete because she olny 85 pounds and most tournaments have don't blue belts in that age bracket; most bjj schools don't promote kids to blue belts until they are at least 16. I think the gi ranking system in tournaments should just be beginners intermediate and advance just like no-gi. My daughters' mma/bjj school only promotes people once or twice a year. My seventeen has been competing and beating purple belts for years but she won't get promote to purple belt until july ( not that we even care about belts).
2/25/11 11:23 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Just to lend some perspective I wouldn't want a student hurt if I knew the person in the brkt was so dominant and aggressive. Can my student handle the pressure? I would have to use my better judgement. I rememeber times when I knew I had no chance of winning against much higher skilled opponents and played tough defense with no chance to score and lost. Kids don't have this mind set developed yet. And so sometimes they need to be protected.
2/25/11 12:46 PM
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Empire
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oh... sorry, didn't even read well enough to figure out she was very young.

sounds like it's going to be lame like this until she's a little older and gets the blue.

either way, she's very good to be instilling fear in coaches ;)
2/25/11 2:26 PM
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Decado24
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If your kid was as great as you're saying than it might be that the coaches weren't afraid of their students losing but they were afraid of their students getting hurt. If this is the case I side with the teachers, as for kids, student safety should be their first concern. It can be different for adults as adults can make a logical choice but kids are different and need to be treated differently.

13yr olds are kinda funny. Some are really focused and are already starting to show that they are becoming adults and some are still just kids, which are out there to have fun. The difference in mentality can make for some odd matchups regardless of the students size.

If the teacher did it because he didn't want his student to lose then I side with you.

Also, yes it’s the Pan-Am which is a big BJJ tournament for adults and kids but mostly for the kids it’s still just local people.
2/25/11 2:42 PM
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I still don't get the protection/afraid of getting hurt argument. I mean, these are martial arts/combat sports we're talking about here, right? So in addition to other things kids are learning to defend themselves, and as such they play rough(ie: getting thrown, pinned, choked, armbarred, etc). So why does it matter that a competitor is ____ as good as the other kids in their draw except that coaches/parents don't want to see their kids lose? It's not like them getting thrown, pinned, choked, or armbarred will be *that* much more likely to cause injury. It just means they're more likely to get beaten faster and with better technique.

Look at the video of the little badass mohawked wrestler on the UG. Look at Justin Flores' highlight video of him launching his fellow 11yr olds into orbit. Why are we so afraid of losing that talent and skill needs to be penalized/prohibited?
2/25/11 2:53 PM
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judoinmotion
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Edited: 02/25/11 3:51 PM
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Gbutts. Did you ever considered to put her to fight boys? Often in Naga tournaments my boys fight against girls and my girls fight against boys due to the lack of girls competitors in certain weights or levels. Last year, one girl beat one of my boys in the no gi finals. she took his back and got ahead on points. It was a hard experience for him, however, he respects girls way more than he used to.
2/25/11 3:28 PM
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Empire
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the girl bit him? or beat him?

2/25/11 3:50 PM
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judoinmotion
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Empire, thanks for point it out! My bad. I apologize for my bad English!
2/25/11 4:28 PM
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gbutts
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Decado24 - If your kid was as great as you're saying than it might be that the coaches weren't afraid of their students losing but they were afraid of their students getting hurt. If this is the case I side with the teachers, as for kids, student safety should be their first concern. It can be different for adults as adults can make a logical choice but kids are different and need to be treated differently.

13yr olds are kinda funny. Some are really focused and are already starting to show that they are becoming adults and some are still just kids, which are out there to have fun. The difference in mentality can make for some odd matchups regardless of the students size.

If the teacher did it because he didn't want his student to lose then I side with you.

Also, yes it’s the Pan-Am which is a big BJJ tournament for adults and kids but mostly for the kids it’s still just local people.



I didn't say my daughter was great, she 13, no 13 can be called great. I was just pointing out what these schools/coaches were trying to pull in order to get a medal. Bjj is a combat sport, there is always chance of someone getting hurt; however, these are 13 years olds and rules really prevent them from hurting each other.
2/25/11 4:31 PM
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gbutts
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judoinmotion - Gbutts. Did you ever considered to put her to fight boys? Often in Naga tournaments my boys fight against girls and my girls fight against boys due to the lack of girls competitors in certain weights or levels. Last year, one girl beat one of my boys in the no gi finals. she took his back and got ahead on points. It was a hard experience for him, however, he respects girls way more than he used to.


most of the people she fights are boys. the pan ams don't allow teen boys and girls to fight each other.
2/25/11 5:23 PM
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Decado24
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gbutts - You clearly stated that you are having a hard time getting your daughter matches against girls her own age. You said "When crystal was 8-12 years old people wouldn't let their kids compete against her it was very frustrating and I think it slowed her development as a judo player". From your statements it's seems like you're saying that your daughter is a lot better than people her own age/gender to the point that you've let her compete against the boys "most of the people she fights are boys" and from the way you've made it sound she's done very well against them. If this is the case good for her and I hope she continues to get better and do well.

On the other side if she is really that much better than her peers then If I had kids I would be worried about my child or student getting hurt against her too. I don’t know you or your daughter’s specific situation but like I said before the child’s safety should be the first concern of a teacher.

Please note when I say hurt, I’m not talking about bumps and bruises but broken arms, legs, collar bones, or even something more worse like their neck, etc. While everybody excepts a certain level of risk while doing these kinds of sports sometimes going against certain people that are wild, crazy, super aggressive, and/or are at a lot higher level than the rest of the competition increases the risk of a serious injury and that is more than some people are willing to put their kids into. Remember they’re kids. This isn’t the Olympics and most people aren’t going to treat it like it is.
2/25/11 5:40 PM
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Decado24
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In every sport there are egotistical people that want to say what they do is the best and BJJ has their share but so does judo. As a person that does both sports and competes in both I’ve run into my fair share of them but just like judo, most people/clubs this just doesn’t hold true. So when I see a statement like this “I think the problem layes with these bjj clubs so worry about a medal count and protecting their image. "It doesn't look good win a judo person can win at bjj event"” it really disappoints. You just seem mad about your daughter’s situation and are willing to bash a whole art because of it.

I’ve studied a lot of different martial arts in my time and the people that I’ve seen that most open to learning and incorporating what they learned from other martial arts is bjj. There will always be exceptions like the original Grace family when the first came to the US. They sold bjj as the ultimate art and that was all you had to learn. Well that’s a salesman for you but most people in bjj talk about cross training. This is the same concept many people have done and that list includes names like Bruce Lee with Jeet Kune Do or Jigoro Kano did when he was developing Judo.
2/25/11 8:35 PM
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gbutts
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Decado24 - In every sport there are egotistical people that want to say what they do is the best and BJJ has their share but so does judo. As a person that does both sports and competes in both I’ve run into my fair share of them but just like judo, most people/clubs this just doesn’t hold true. So when I see a statement like this “I think the problem layes with these bjj clubs so worry about a medal count and protecting their image. "It doesn't look good win a judo person can win at bjj event"” it really disappoints. You just seem mad about your daughter’s situation and are willing to bash a whole art because of it.

I’ve studied a lot of different martial arts in my time and the people that I’ve seen that most open to learning and incorporating what they learned from other martial arts is bjj. There will always be exceptions like the original Grace family when the first came to the US. They sold bjj as the ultimate art and that was all you had to learn. Well that’s a salesman for you but most people in bjj talk about cross training. This is the same concept many people have done and that list includes names like Bruce Lee with Jeet Kune Do or Jigoro Kano did when he was developing Judo.



Well I'm not bragging about my daughters. And the statements I made are true , you don't know these people . I have heard them talk shit about judo players at bjj tournaments , even though the judo people keep beating their students. I have never said anything bad about bjj especially since half of my students come from bjj clubs. I think you should stop trying to put more meaning into my statements than what I said . I have already given my views about cross training in sambo ,judo , and bjj. Crystal development was slowed because she had nobody to compete against. Erin competes against boys and girls because she is match with them. I don't teach people to fight wild, I teach technique and effective aggression,, so she is not going hurt anyone because she is wild. Maybe next time you post something you should think about what you are saying and the manner in which say it. Your statements are offense to me, I don't need a pat on the shoulder or to brag about anything. I have been grappling and/or teaching for over thirty years. Btw, I ever said Erin had problems getting matches . I only said the girls' coaches were worried about medals. Erin has foughts these girls at other events.


2/25/11 8:44 PM
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gbutts
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Decado24 - gbutts - You clearly stated that you are having a hard time getting your daughter matches against girls her own age. You said "When crystal was 8-12 years old people wouldn't let their kids compete against her it was very frustrating and I think it slowed her development as a judo player". From your statements it's seems like you're saying that your daughter is a lot better than people her own age/gender to the point that you've let her compete against the boys "most of the people she fights are boys" and from the way you've made it sound she's done very well against them. If this is the case good for her and I hope she continues to get better and do well.

On the other side if she is really that much better than her peers then If I had kids I would be worried about my child or student getting hurt against her too. I don’t know you or your daughter’s specific situation but like I said before the child’s safety should be the first concern of a teacher.

Please note when I say hurt, I’m not talking about bumps and bruises but broken arms, legs, collar bones, or even something more worse like their neck, etc. While everybody excepts a certain level of risk while doing these kinds of sports sometimes going against certain people that are wild,

crazy, super aggressive, and/or are at a lot higher level than the rest of the competition increases the risk of a serious injury and that is more than some people are willing to put their kids into.

Remember they’re kids. This isn’t the Olympics and most people aren’t going to treat it like it is.




Crystal and Erin are to different people so I did not say Erin was having a hard time getting matches. Who said I was treating anything like the olmpics. You don't know me or daughters so maybe you should stop assuming you know their fighting styles. Btw, there is nothing wrong with being super aggrevisse if it control aggression.


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