UnderGround Forums
 

Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> what level should a bjj bb compete in a judo tourn


2/25/11 2:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
whitebeltchamp01
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/17/02
Posts: 492
 
What level should a bjj bb compete in at a judo tournament?

The bjj black belt has zero judo tournament experience.

White to green? Brown? Black?
2/25/11 4:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
faixa rua
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/25/07
Posts: 7037
you want to learn judo practice your standing? you start at novice and not win in matwork.
2/25/11 5:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Decado24
11 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/06
Posts: 410
It's simple, if you don't have a rank in judo you start in the novice division.

I've noticed the standup game varies greatly from each BJJ BB that I've worked against. Some could very easly have a BB in Judo as well but they've never taken a Judo class in their life.

However, most only have a very basic standup game. Remember for a lot of BJJ guys the main concept is to take their opponent to the ground and win from there so their take downs are usually not a refined as a Judoka or someone that has a wrestling background.

If the BJJ BB has good standup he should progress quickly through the Judo ranks but just like all students they should start at the beginning.
2/25/11 6:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
er095
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/03
Posts: 2062
Its says on your profile your a Edson Carvalho BB. I know they train a good amount of Judo at his academy. How long have you been training there?
2/25/11 6:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12279
if this person where smart he'd go to a local judo club first and see how he does in tachiwaza randori and compare his skill level with those of people from his local area. that would be the only honest way to answer this.

2/25/11 8:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
whitebeltchamp01
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/17/02
Posts: 493
er095 - Its says on your profile your a Edson Carvalho BB. I know they train a good amount of Judo at his academy. How long have you been training there?


This is not about me. I was having a discussion about this topic with a class mate. I'm on the side of (compete as novice and see how you do). While my friend is on the side of (compete at brown). Because he could hang with the browns at the dojo. One more thing this bjj bb is not rank in judo.

Is this bjj bb a sandbagger?
2/25/11 8:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
er095
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/03
Posts: 2064
yes
2/26/11 8:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1367
This topic stirs up more resentment from BJJers in conversations that I have been involved in. I think it best to become affiliated with a school and get promoted thru their ranks and that way fight with the belt rank giving by the instructor. I have seen where judo brown/black fighting in BJJ tournaments as white belts. And BJJ brown/black belts fighting in judo tournaments as white belts. The judo community cares less. But for some reason the BJJers are offended when the judo wins. I have seen wrestlers who have been fighting as kids compete as white belts in BJJ tournaments and very little is said. The BJJers have some resentment to judo players in general concerning this. There also appears a fear by BJJ brown/blacks belts to compete in judo and losing to a white belt. That this will somehow dishonor BJJ. Copmete at what rank you are given by your insturctor. You can also compete in the higher rank if he/she signs your 2nd division.
2/26/11 11:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
rmenergy
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/18/10
Posts: 46
I personally haven't noticed this resentment. I have a teammate @ the BJJ gym that I'm at lose in the semis against a Judo Brown at a tournament last year(they were both competing in the White belt division). There were absolutely no hard feelings, just appreciation for a learning experience.

The Judo club that I'm also at travels to BJJ events for a similar reason, new experience and to possibly learn something.

Bad experiences could be local issues or maybe the region I'm in is just more friendly to cross training/competing.
2/26/11 1:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1368
On this forum you wouldn't get any complaints one way or the other. If this issue was discussed on the BJJ forum you would get a wide range of comments that I think more resemble my experience. Like I said the judo guys couldn't care less becausue they know to go far in judo you better have judo skills.
2/26/11 2:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
snakepitz
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5174
Ask Edson as he is BJJ black belt and 5th (or 6th) dan Judo BB

He knows better and will tell the student what to enter accordingly

All students at Team Carvalho are versed in Judo so its not your typical bjj school
2/28/11 12:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Decado24
11 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/06
Posts: 412
judoblackbelt - On this forum you wouldn't get any complaints one way or the other. If this issue was discussed on the BJJ forum you would get a wide range of comments that I think more resemble my experience. Like I said the judo guys couldn't care less becausue they know to go far in judo you better have judo skills.


I disagree, I think most bjj'ers would start at the beginning but I am interested to see what the response is from a pure bjj'ers point of view is. I'm going to copy and paste the original question with no changes to it, into a new tread on the Atama BJJ forum and we can see what happens. I'm not going to mention this tread because I don’t want a few idiots turning this into a judo vs bjj thing. Hopefully, we can see how a different group of people views this same topic.

My hypostasis: is that most people on that forum would agree that they should start in the novice division and not try to jump to a higher rank until it is awarded through a proper school. I believe that ego wouldn’t prevent them from starting at the beginning.

judoblackbelt - for fun let's put you on the other side and say all hell's going to break loose and they will argue to that they are the best in the world at everything and this judo thing is not important enough to bother them with..just kidding. We will say that they will be offended by such an idea.

The point of this is to see what the majority view of such a topic is among most bjj’ers.
2/28/11 1:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 3984
What's this blackbelt's judo experience and how good or bad is his tachi-waza? What's his motivation to compete in judo?

If he's just looking for 'wins' and/or to test his bjj against judo then he needs to compete at the blackbelt level. If his tachi-waza sucks and/or he's just looking to judge his level by actually going out there to compete on the feet then he can start at whitebelt the first time, no problem. That or he can do like JR recommended, and see how he does in randori beforehand to know where he's at/what level he should be competing.
2/28/11 6:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1374
I don't know where there topic is going but my reply was join a club and compete at the level the instructor tells you to. Secondly judokas don't care if a BJJ BB enters a white belt div because they know to progress in judo you will need judo skills eventually. But if you asked this same question on the BJJ forum a judo BB competing in a white belt div you would get a varied answer. So if you post on the BJJ forum you can prove/disprove what I have experienced/read?
2/28/11 6:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Decado24
11 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/06
Posts: 426
JudoBlackBelt, I'm not trying to prove/disprove what you've experienced. You experiences are your own and that can not be changed.

The issue that I have is I hear a lot a judo guys complaining about the big egos that most bjj'ers have. While this does hold true for some in my experence It's not an accurate reflection on most. This has been my experence not yours.

Second, I often hear people in the Judo community complain about bjj'ers. While almost all the bjj'ers I've worked with have high regards for judoka. Once again this has been my experence not yours.

I believe your opinion is part of the manority and not the majority but I'm open to seeing how a larger community (at least on this website) views such a topic. I'm also having a very slow day at work and needed to do something.

But... the most important part of all of this is how do bjj'ers rank their ability to compete with judoka? In this thread we get to hear it from judo's point of view and I also wanted to see if from a bjj point of view.
2/28/11 7:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1375
I go back to part of my original premise and that is judokas do not care what div a BJJ BB enters. Most judokas I know do not follow BJJ. The are aware of it. They know it for its specialty in ground fighting. We have a Saulo purple belt who gives everyone fits on the ground except for a handful. Not with submissions but pins. Subs take too much time in judo. So this issue doesn't matter with us. They can enter in the novice -white,green/blue div(s),sometimes their is a brown div. and sometimes there is an advanced combined div - brown/black. If you are not a black belt your instructor(1st degree BB (Shodan) or higher has to sign your tournament application which declares you are of the skill level to compete in that division you are entering.
2/28/11 10:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seong gyeong
37 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/7/10
Posts: 61
Checked out the thread on the BJJ forum. I wish this forum had similar levels of traffic. T_T
3/1/11 6:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1383
Seong gyeong - higher traffic yes, sharing more judo tips/video yes. Disaggreements with bjjers no. I am reading the posts on the thread and getting a chuckle.
3/1/11 9:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seong gyeong
37 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/7/10
Posts: 62
judoblackbelt - Seong gyeong - higher traffic yes, sharing more judo tips/video yes. Disaggreements with bjjers no. I am reading the posts on the thread and getting a chuckle.


Word.
3/1/11 9:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1386
I have no idea what that means.
3/2/11 6:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seong gyeong
37 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/7/10
Posts: 63
Hahaha, just means I agree with you.
3/2/11 7:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1388
Thanks, yOu have to forgive in my "old judo age" on keeping up with the younger folks lingo.
3/6/11 1:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Oldboy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/10/07
Posts: 1640
judoblackbelt - This topic stirs up more resentment from BJJers in conversations that I have been involved in. I think it best to become affiliated with a school and get promoted thru their ranks and that way fight with the belt rank giving by the instructor. I have seen where judo brown/black fighting in BJJ tournaments as white belts. And BJJ brown/black belts fighting in judo tournaments as white belts. The judo community cares less. But for some reason the BJJers are offended when the judo wins. I have seen wrestlers who have been fighting as kids compete as white belts in BJJ tournaments and very little is said. The BJJers have some resentment to judo players in general concerning this. There also appears a fear by BJJ brown/blacks belts to compete in judo and losing to a white belt. That this will somehow dishonor BJJ. Copmete at what rank you are given by your insturctor. You can also compete in the higher rank if he/she signs your 2nd division.


FRAT Warning

Perhaps I can help weigh in on this.

I've got about 5 years of bjj, which was about 70% no-gi and have since started training Judo seriously. My newaza is better then just about all the black belts at my Judo club but the fact of the matter is my tachiwaza is so-so as I've only got a couple of months of Judo under my belt.

I'm competing in my first Judo tournament at the end of this month and my instructor is having me start at the beginning. I agree with him as well. If I clean house against the white and green belts then it may be time for me to move up but I trust his judgement as to what is appropriate.

Having done a good share of BJJ comps, there definitely is an "expectation" of sorts for Judo guys to compete at higher than the novice levels. The BJJ idea is that ones total grappling experience, be it wrestling, judo or anything else ought to be taken into account when determining their skill level. This is particularly the case in no-gi where there is no belt ranking and it's just broken up by total time spent training any grappling art. I think this is a good argument and if some people have taken it in a negative direction that is unfortunate.

From what it sounds the Judo world is concerned with how long you have been doing Judo specifically and other training while good does not apply toward rank. That's where competition comes in handy as it is a true litmus test of your skill. Like I said I can best Judo black belts with my ground skills but when it comes to being on the feet the tables are completely turned. I'll take wins on the ground for certain but I am also training Judo because I truly love the art itself.

Uranage and the "Khabarelli" FTW.
3/6/11 7:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 1395
The judo competitive divisions at local levels are white, green, blue, brown, black. So where does a BJJ BB enter who is beginning in judo? Where his instructor tells him to enter. Many times brkts are combined for example white/green/blue. The local flyer will spell out the divisions but discretion is left to the tournament officials. If it is a Senior E level or above it is just novice/advanced. If you enter the white/green/blue and "clean house" as you state means your grappling skills are much better than your rank. But what are your judo skills? YOur progression in judo is as important as your wins. Is your goal to get a BB then you have to go thru the progression. I have seen competitors like you. Demolish the novice divisions but get into brown/black and get stymied. No progression at all.
3/6/11 9:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Oldboy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/10/07
Posts: 1641
judoblackbelt - The judo competitive divisions at local levels are white, green, blue, brown, black. So where does a BJJ BB enter who is beginning in judo? Where his instructor tells him to enter. Many times brkts are combined for example white/green/blue. The local flyer will spell out the divisions but discretion is left to the tournament officials. If it is a Senior E level or above it is just novice/advanced. If you enter the white/green/blue and "clean house" as you state means your grappling skills are much better than your rank. But what are your judo skills? YOur progression in judo is as important as your wins. Is your goal to get a BB then you have to go thru the progression. I have seen competitors like you. Demolish the novice divisions but get into brown/black and get stymied. No progression at all.


As I mentioned in my previous post I'm not going to shy away from my ground skills, they came from much hard work and training and since I am allowed to use them I will.

But I am also training Judo to get better at and eventually reach BB in Judo. I train and take my tachiwaza very seriously and have a set of throws that work very well for me in randori.

I'm not a bjj guy trying to work his bjj into judo, I'm a judoka with a bjj background. I want wins coming from big throws just as much as I want wins from newaza.

I'm aware the progression is a long and tough road but I'm happy to walk it. :)

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.