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HolyGround >> Is Rob Bell a heretic?


4/18/11 2:58 AM
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Ridgeback
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 yusul,

Just so you know, most CU's believe in Gehenna.  The difference is that they don't believe it is a forever state for people.  They see it as a place of purification, perhaps lasting "ages and ages," which is one way to interpret the Greek word "aion" that is often translated in English texts as "everlasting."   CU does not represent a non-belief in hell by any stretch of the imagination.  All the CU advocates I have read most certainly believed that some portion of humanity will be in Gehenna (Outer Darkness, Where the Worn Dieth Not, etc. etc) of at least some duration.  There is a sense that eventually all will be reconciled with God, but some will choose to do this the hard way and that will be a regrettable thing just like having a child become an addict and spend time in prison and destroy all the relationships around him, but eventually getting clean and sober represents a loss and a regrettable path to take.  
4/18/11 9:17 AM
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reverend john
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Ridgeback - Can we all agree that a Christian would hope for and pray for the salvation of all humans whether such a thing will happen in the ultimate sense?  I fear that may not even be a point of agreement.


in my experience that is far from the case

rev
4/18/11 1:36 PM
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Ray Blackburn
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I'll read this thread next time I fire up my computer but I have to think Carlton Pearson is a bit envious of all the attention Bell is getting over his book. Phone Post
4/18/11 2:09 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I found this TIME story about the uproar over Bell's book.  

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110414/us_time/08599206508000
4/18/11 3:15 PM
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Ray Blackburn
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^^ just read that, which is why this thread caught my attention.
4/18/11 8:04 PM
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reverend john
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Pearson is not an evangelical and does not hold the scriptures in the same respect bell does hence the problems
4/18/11 10:01 PM
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Grakman
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Pearson used to though; he ended up stripped of his ministry and ran out of his church. He went a lot farther than Bell though, adopting the modern universalist paradigm that 'all roads lead to God.' Phone Post
4/18/11 10:41 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Universalism is bad for business.  I think most people are attached to the idea of other people they don't like getting their comeuppance.  A lot of heaven appears to be hinged on that.
4/18/11 11:51 PM
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reverend john
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that was my point grakman, Bell is trying to stay in the family

rev
4/19/11 11:39 AM
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Grakman
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I agree rev, Bell is trying to be universalist but doesn't have the cajones.

4/19/11 2:39 PM
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reverend john
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I was going to disagree but then I thought about it and I get the same feeling. He seems like a wushu washy mamby pamby make everything nice don't make any definitive statements kind of guy. I do believe you do not have to leave evangelicalism to be a universal salvationist (if evangelical means accepting the scriptures as authority)

Rev
4/19/11 6:29 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - I was going to disagree but then I thought about it and I get the same feeling. He seems like a wushu washy mamby pamby make everything nice don't make any definitive statements kind of guy. I do believe you do not have to leave evangelicalism to be a universal salvationist (if evangelical means accepting the scriptures as authority)

Rev

 Just speculating, but Bell might be concerned after what happened to Pearson. I do agree that you do not have to leave the evangelical fold just because you subscribe to universal salvation ( although they might kick you out!). There is a book with the same name, written under the pseudonym of Gregory MacDonald, whose author said he had to pen the book under said pseudonym out of fear of repercussion and loss of employment.

Here is a link to the book:

The Evangelical Universalist
4/19/11 8:01 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - 
reverend john - I was going to disagree but then I thought about it and I get the same feeling. He seems like a wushu washy mamby pamby make everything nice don't make any definitive statements kind of guy. I do believe you do not have to leave evangelicalism to be a universal salvationist (if evangelical means accepting the scriptures as authority)

Rev

 Just speculating, but Bell might be concerned after what happened to Pearson. I do agree that you do not have to leave the evangelical fold just because you subscribe to universal salvation ( although they might kick you out!). There is a book with the same name, written under the pseudonym of Gregory MacDonald, whose author said he had to pen the book under said pseudonym out of fear of repercussion and loss of employment.

Here is a link to the book:

The Evangelical Universalist

 I have no respect for that.  If you believe it is true you should preach it whether you keep your job.   
4/20/11 9:15 AM
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reverend john
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I don't think Rob Bell believes the same as pearson. Nor do I think he is the way he is out of fear of reaction. Rob Bell is just that way. He is admittedly and proudly post modern. He doesn't really make declarative statements. Its all what ifs, and questions, and discussion points. It is all about mystery and paradox. And to be honest I struggle with it. But I don't think he is scared of losing his job or his following.

rev
4/21/11 11:34 AM
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yusul
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'The first bit of your post says exactly the opposite of what I said. We do pay for our sins, now and later. Paul says we will suffer loss.''

ridgeback has corrected me on that on page three. if you yourself believe in a hell, then that's a point to move on from. the argument is whether hell is temporary or permanent; ridgeback presents an interesting argument. as i don't read greek, if the direct translation is ages, then there is room for interpretation.


''And the second part of the first bit is exactly my point, you don't start in the path of redemption without Christ. So why not accept Christ right here and now. Why would you allow the world to continue to stain, and degrade you. Why would you allow your sin to continue to have a hold of you just because in the end you will get it right. Why not start right now? Which is addressing your question of if we all make it then what is the point?''

i would argue that atheist might not care, in that it's a matter of not knowing what you are missing, if they enjoy life in it's current state.

'Heaven is heaven, the kingdom of heaven is now, my point is Jesus calls us to start being the kingdom of heaven. Why would you not think that is worth doing? '

it's a bit confusing as it sounds like you are accusing me of not believing. i am saying a non believer can say that. in fact, in pre communist china, that mentality lead to polytheism (hey, those christians might be right, but buddhism and taoism might also be right; i'll follow buddha and the tao and if i'm wrong, well, i'll go to heaven anyways). in some ways, it makes me feel that the sacrifice is cheapened, although it's just a personal feeling.

''Its like saying, well, someday our wrestling team will win the state championship, I can't wait for that, but for now I am not even gonna try because I know it will happen someday... That is stupid, you train hard, push like crazy, work as hard as you can to be part of that legacy. Again, my point was an answer to your "whats the point question"

actually, i think there are a lot of people who would not try if they knew they would make the wrestling team anyways.
a large population would not try, in fact.

example, why do people play lotteries? i would bet that if you guaranteed that anyone who played the lottery would at least win his entire future earnings, how many people do you think would play the lottery and forgo working for their earnings instead? i can get an bluenamer to do a poll on the og if you want. but whether or not humans are inherently sinful, i believe that humans are inherently lazy.

''As to my belief, yes I believe in satan, and in hell, I just think they are both different than what traditional Christianity teaches. There is no way you can see what I have seen and not believe in hell or satan.''

well, i guess that's another topic in that i'm interested about your version of satan, but i'm not going to ask about it on this thread any further.

''And in the end, my point stands, any father that would go as far as to sacrifice the son for our salvation, would not then close the door on us.'

it seems like we have a disagree here in that i believe the door is opened, but person has to walk through it rather than God forcing them through it.

''As to atonement theory the western punitive substitutionary atonement is one of a few, and is not in any way the oldest, nor in my opinion the strongest. Jesus died for our sins not to pay the price for our sins, but to show us the way out of our sins. Christ was victorious over sin and death, so that we could be as well.

rev''

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. while i believe that Christ's life, death and saying were giving us a perfect example for how to live with God and follow his way, i believe that the point of the resurrection was to wipe away our sins, which we cannot do by ourselves.

From what i understand, the way out of our sins is to believe that Christ paid for our sins and we show our believe by repentance and trying to do his will. it seems like a small nuance, but it's pretty distinct imo. I'm also interested to hear about older traditions that are biblical, but i guess i could google them.

ridgeback wrote:

''Can we all agree that a Christian would hope for and pray for the salvation of all humans whether such a thing will happen in the ultimate sense? I fear that may not even be a point of agreement.''

i agree completely with that. Aside from Jesus himself, stephen prayed for forgiveness for the people stoning him, and other followers did so as well. the point of missionary work is to work for the salvation of mankind and the gospel was to spread to all nations.
4/21/11 7:59 PM
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reverend john
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You don't get much of what I write, not sure if that is my fault, but perhaps you can read a bit more carefully and not try and guess what I am saying.

It seems on almost every point you aren't getting what I am trying to say. If it is my fault I am sorry.

rev
4/25/11 8:43 PM
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PastorJosh
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I read his latest book "Love Wins" and it is an exercise in childish, inaccurate pipe dreams. Totally a fabrication from cover to cover. He uses Scriptures out of context, manipulates them, twists them and turns them inside out. He uses history wright as well, only citing manipulated, isolated fragmets. It is a creative book, but theologically it should only be used to hold up your couch if it's not level. Purely an abortion of the truth. I'm going to write a book called "Justice Wins" to set the record straight. Phone Post
4/26/11 12:53 AM
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reverend john
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If you are looking for good strong theology you are looking in the wrong place with Bell, he is not a theologian. To say he takes scriptures out of context however is the same argument I have with the traditional view. They need to twist and squirm to deal with the proof texts of universal salvation, taking them completely out of context. As well as not putting their own proof texts into their own cultural context.

As far as your book, how you could call it justice wins when an innocent man dies for the guilty I will never know. Grace wins? Of course that is what love wins says, it just takes Jesus sacrifice and gives it universal importance and weight.

rev
4/26/11 12:59 AM
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Ridgeback
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 On the point of Justice I will refer you to part of a homily of Isaac the Ninevite:

Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright (cf. Ps. 24:8, 144:17), His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and to the impious' (cf. Luke 6:35). How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? 'Friend, I do thee no wrong: I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?' (Matt. 20:12-15). How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? (Luke 15:11 ff.). None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God's justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! (cf. Rom. 5:8).
4/26/11 1:29 AM
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PastorJosh
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Maybe I can call it "Justice Wins" because Christ satisfied the justice of God, and those who reject that free gift are on the receiving end of justice...hell. That's how justice wins. Phone Post
4/26/11 3:28 AM
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Grakman
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According to you and the other Calvinists, PastorJosh, the damned do not have a 'choice'; that was decided for them at creation. And you call THAT justice?? lol that's rich!! Phone Post
4/26/11 3:31 AM
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Grakman
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Not to mention spending an eternity in Hell for a mortal's lifetime of sins - that is not 'just' , either. Phone Post
4/26/11 9:25 AM
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reverend john
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justice wins except for when it doesn't?

justice wins, but not God's justice cause God isn't just he's gracious?

Or maybe

Justice Wins! and other reasons 1Cor 13 aren't true

rev
4/26/11 4:09 PM
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Grakman
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PastorJosh -  Maybe I can call it "Justice Wins" because Christ satisfied the justice of God, and those who reject that free gift are on the receiving end of justice...hell. That's how justice wins. Phone Post

 Haven't you already said that people can't even accept this 'free gift' unless God forces them do so? Everyone else will reject it out of hand because of their sinful nature anyway?
4/26/11 5:03 PM
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inlikeflynn
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reverend john - justice wins except for when it doesn't?

justice wins, but not God's justice cause God isn't just he's gracious?

Or maybe

Justice Wins! and other reasons 1Cor 13 aren't true

rev


LOL. Good stuff, Rev.

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