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HolyGround >> Is Rob Bell a heretic?

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4/26/11 8:24 PM
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gord96
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Always saw 1 Cor 13 as Paul's advice to the Corinthians about how to treat each other. Phone Post
4/26/11 8:28 PM
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reverend john
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and at the end he says "faith hope and love but the greatest is love" completely missing the whole justice thing. In addition, he says love never fails, is patient, and kind, and forgiving and long suffering.

rev
4/26/11 8:35 PM
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gord96
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i hear ya. i just read 1 Cor last night by chance. I guess in reading the whole letter in one sitting it seemed Paul was talking about church issues and that's it. talking about what was the most important traits for a church and it's congregation to possess.

i think the reason love never fails is that it's the one thing that will remain constant into eternity. faith and hope will be out the window when we die or Christ returns.
4/27/11 3:00 AM
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PastorJosh
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Rev....you are misrepresenting the love of God. Perfect love, God's love is always, always, always balanced with his perfect justice. Hell exists and it awaits those who reject the gift of Jesus Christ. If you really are a pastor of some sort then you are going to be held INCREDIBLY accountable to God if you actually teach that God won't send people to hell. That's heresy and I reject it outright. And so does the Word of God. I would cite Scripture but you have made your ability to manipulate The Word abundantly clear. For your sake and for the sake of your flock (if you have one), please get it right. Phone Post
4/27/11 3:01 AM
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PastorJosh
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1 Cor 13 is NOT about how God loves us. Phone Post
4/27/11 12:12 PM
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Grakman
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PastorJosh -  Rev....you are misrepresenting the love of God. Perfect love, God's love is always, always, always balanced with his perfect justice. Hell exists and it awaits those who reject the gift of Jesus Christ. If you really are a pastor of some sort then you are going to be held INCREDIBLY accountable to God if you actually teach that God won't send people to hell. That's heresy and I reject it outright. And so does the Word of God. I would cite Scripture but you have made your ability to manipulate The Word abundantly clear. For your sake and for the sake of your flock (if you have one), please get it right. Phone Post

 Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Besides that, the Rev (nor any other on this board who claims to believe in universal reconcilation) has never said that there is no hell. It would do you well to go back and read what people are actually saying they believe instead of attacking what you think they believe.
4/27/11 1:32 PM
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reverend john
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PastorJosh - 1 Cor 13 is NOT about how God loves us. Phone Post

It is about agape love which the bible says God is. In addition God says lovenever fails.

Your inability to understand that Gods salvation in Jesus is nothing even close to justice. You do not deserve salvation nor do I. It is not just that I have received Gods never ending love

Nor has any of the so called ever "bible" Christians ever explained how very clear scriptures like "being lifted up I will draw ALL MEN to me" or "Christ the savior or all men ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE" or "as in Adam all have become dead in aim in Christ ALL are given life" "every knee will bow and every knee will confess Christ as lord"

In addition Jesus forgave sin with a declaration no blood sacrifice just said "your sins are forgiven" the scribes and Pharisees said "only god can do that" and the meaning of that was that god only forgave sins within the context of the temple sacrifice. Yet Jesus forgave sin outside of sacrificial system. So God can forgive sin without the sacrificial system

To look at the idea of non redemptive hell or eternal damnation as justice is to basically to believe that God needs ro punish those who disagree with you which is only
Justice to self absorbed self righteous jerks.

As to my culpability I accept it gratefully. I call all I know to enter Gods kingdom not for fear of hell but for love of Christ and belief in the way. Not that that matter to you calvinists I and them are in or out based on Gods whim so nothing I say or do can change that

Which sounds so just

Rev
4/28/11 8:56 PM
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PastorJosh
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John 3:18, Psalm 5:5, Habakkuk 1:13, Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23....I could go on and on. YOU CANNOT SLITHER OUT from underneath those verses, you snake. God forgiving outside the sacrificial system happened BEFORE the cross! You don't see ANY OF THAT AFTER THE CROSS!!! None whatsoever! How can you blatantly ignore all the passages that say "these are the people who will not inherit the kingdom of God..." and then lists drunkards, liars, adulterers, etc...how in the name of The King do you just blatantly pass that by? Unbelievable!!! All for the sake of tickling their ears! "Don't tell them the truth....that might bring your offerings and attendance down." YOU CAN BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT YOU DO NOT LOVE ANYONE AT ALL IF YOU DO NOT WARN THEM OF THE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES OF REJECTING CHRIST!!! I'm finished with this argument. You are going to be certainly sorry when you stand before Him knowing you manipulated His Word just to get butts in the seats and money in the basket. Sickening. Phone Post
4/28/11 8:59 PM
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PastorJosh
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PS: Keep calling people to believe because of love's sake? YOU'RE NOT EXPLAINING TO THEM WHY THEY NEED A SAVIOR!!!! You're not telling them why this love os so grand! Can't you see that? The love you're preaching doesn't compel the sinner to repent because you've spent 0.0 time showing him his blatant defiance before a holy God!! Why would he need to repent if there's no penalty? This is basic Christianity!!! Phone Post
4/28/11 11:36 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 04/28/11 11:37 PM
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PastorJosh -  \You are going to be certainly sorry when you stand before Him knowing you manipulated His Word just to get butts in the seats and money in the basket. Sickening. Phone Post

 Out of all the people on this board that you might have said that to Josh, you picked the ONE guy to whom it is LEAST likely to apply.  Seriously. It might behoove you to spend some time getting to know the people here and what they actually stand for before you go off spouting this kind of garbage.

And calling him a snake? lol   next thing you know you'll be calling everyone white washed sepulchres.


PastorJosh Why would he need to repent if there's no penalty?
 So there is no reason to repent if there is no penalty? Whatever happened to repentance out of love and gratitude to God for what he has done for you?
4/29/11 12:28 AM
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Ridgeback
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 Once there was a man who had two sons.  One son wanted to receive his portion of his father's inheritance early so his father generously granted this son his portion.  This son moved far away from his father and blew all his money through rioutous living.  Eventually he came to the end of his rope and was reduced to feeding pigs.  He was so hungry at that point the pig slop looked good to him.  He recalled that at least in his father's house his servants had food so he decided to repent and return to his father's house with the plan of asking for a position as a servant of the household. 

When the son returned the father met him on the road and said "what do you think you are doing?  You don't think you can just come back into my household without me being granted some kind of payment for the way you squandered the money I gave you do you?"  The father then angrily pointed out that there must be some kind of justice to even the score with his son and so his son must be severely punished for his riotous living.

 Now the older brother knew that his younger brother was weak from starvation and would not survive the lashes his father was compelled to mete out to him, for he was not a forgiving father even though he told his sons they must forgive all offenses, even from their enemies.  So the older son volunteered to take his place and receive the punishment intended for the prodigal son so the father's sense of justice could be satisfied, for he was a great and powerful man whose honor could not be slighted in any form.  And so the older brother took a beating from his own father in his younger brother's stead and then the father welcomed the younger brother back into his kingdom.  Even so, the younger brother loved his older brother for what he did, but was forever estranged from his father, who told his sons they must forgive all things yet refused to forgive him without first beating his older brother.  And the younger son from that day dreamed of a father who would have fallen upon his neck to welcome him home and ensure him that his house would always be available to him.
4/29/11 8:32 AM
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reverend john
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Good story ridge

And laugh at the thought of me getting money for the gospel.

And you have not been listening we desperately need salvation from our sins and from hell.

But you know everything so no need to talk to you hope that works for you

Rev
4/29/11 12:58 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Grakman - 
PastorJosh -  \You are going to be certainly sorry when you stand before Him knowing you manipulated His Word just to get butts in the seats and money in the basket. Sickening. Phone Post

 Out of all the people on this board that you might have said that to Josh, you picked the ONE guy to whom it is LEAST likely to apply.  Seriously. It might behoove you to spend some time getting to know the people here and what they actually stand for before you go off spouting this kind of garbage.


I've got a better idea. Why don't you just go away, Josh? You don't take the time actually understand where people are coming from before lashing out. You show no respect, grace, or humility when disagreeing. As such, you add nothing of value to these interesting, and diverse discussions.

I wonder what would happen if we put your life up against Rev's. Who would look more like Jesus? Actually, I don't wonder. Judging from your attitude here, I'm pretty sure how that would turn out.
4/29/11 1:14 PM
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Grakman
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Good points Flynn, but guys like Josh will just pat themselves on the back and say that we can't handle the truth so we force them out. He doesn't say what our 'itching ears want to hear.' He thinks what he is doing is contending for the word and defending God's honor. He'll tell himself to 'shake the dust off his sandals' and take pride in being criticized for 'preaching God's word.'  I've seen way too many guys like him in my day. He may even brag to his friends how he fought against pretenders and false Christians and anti-Christs on the Internet but they did not want to listen to God's word and they will rue the day they did not listen to him. With that in mind, I don't care if he stays or goes, maybe he will learn something if he sticks around.

And yeah I agree with rev, great story Ridge. Well played.
4/29/11 1:52 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Grakman - Good points Flynn, but guys like Josh will just pat themselves on the back and say that we can't handle the truth so we force them out. He doesn't say what our 'itching ears want to hear.' He thinks what he is doing is contending for the word and defending God's honor. He'll tell himself to 'shake the dust off his sandals' and take pride in being criticized for 'preaching God's word.'  I've seen way too many guys like him in my day. He may even brag to his friends how he fought against pretenders and false Christians and anti-Christs on the Internet but they did not want to listen to God's word and they will rue the day they did not listen to him. With that in mind, I don't care if he stays or goes, maybe he will learn something if he sticks around.

And yeah I agree with rev, great story Ridge. Well played.


True, but that last post was the straw that broke the camel's back. He reminds me of toelocku with his arrogance, but at least tocklocku wasn't nasty about it.

x3 for Ridge's story.
4/29/11 4:12 PM
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gord96
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bought this book off itunes today to give it a listen and see what all the fuss is about.
4/29/11 4:32 PM
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reverend john
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Yeah I won't even bother. Just don't like his beat poet style nor his what if kinda sorta maybe stance

Rev
4/30/11 4:49 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 04/30/11 5:03 PM
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listened to the first 3 chapters so far. very interesting. reminds me alot of my view of Jesus and Christianity before I started looking into doctrines. i can see what he means sometimes, but other times it kinda rings hollow. i will have to finish the book to get it all figured out.
5/1/11 11:30 AM
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gord96
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dp....
5/1/11 2:41 PM
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Lahi
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inlikeflynn 
x3 for Ridge's story.

5/1/11 3:03 PM
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Lahi
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It hit me the other day where some of the people with a real passionate belief in a literal, eternal Hell are coming from. I was reading some comments on Facebook about Rob Bell, and it hit me that some of these folks see Hell as a very clear, obvious Biblical teaching that others of us are watering down in the name of compromise and easy Christianity. ('Why else would you change something so unpleasant, and so obvious that you have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to get around it?' seems to be their thinking.) Pretty obvious, but I had always come from such a different place on this issue that I never saw it before.

On the flip side, I don't think that a lot of the Hell believers are giving those on the other side a fair shake. Say what you will about their other unique beliefs, but Seventh-day Adventists make a strong, Bible based case for annihilationism. Not to mention the long history of Christians past and present who have believed in some sort of Universal reconciliation, yet have never been about preaching cheap grace, compromise, or an easy Gospel. And they haven't come to this belief in any way except through earnest prayer and study. The idea of a God who would eternally tourture those who offend Him makes no sense to them at all in the light of Scripture and The Word given in Jesus. Unfortunately, we non-eternal-tourture believers often seem to get lumped in with people who really are eager, for whatever reason, to change or water-down Christianity to suit them when they feel the need.

Just some obvious thoughts.

Pastor Josh, if you happen to read this I'd be curious what you think.
5/1/11 3:21 PM
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Lahi
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I thought this was interesting. Not arguing any side here, but just to make the point that eternal Hell isn't that obvious to everyone:

John Wenham has classified the New Testament texts on the fate of the lost:

10 texts (4%) "Gehenna"
26 (10%) to "burning up"
59 (22%) to "destruction, perdition, utter loss or ruin"
20 (8%) to "separation from God"
25 (10%) to "death in its finality" or "the second death"
108 (41%) to "unforgiven sin", where the precise consequence is not stated
15 (6%) to "anguish"

Wenham claims that just a single verse (Revelation 14:11) sounds like eternal torment. This is out of a total of 264 references.[63] Ralph Bowles argues the word order of the verse was chosen to fit a chiastic structure, and does not support eternal punishment.[64]

(From a Wiki article on Annihilationism)
5/1/11 3:36 PM
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gord96
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i am only half way through the book, but so far Bell hasn't really preached much on universalism, more just explained the different ideas of Hell and the possibility of redemption after death.

What I like that Bell does is break down what Hell is. Is it some burning pit where the un-repentant are flung into? or is it the agonizing and terrible realization to an unbeliever that they were wrong as God in all His glory returns to Earth.

When Christ returns His all powerful Light will burn away the works and merits of all men. To the believer they will feel the warmth of God's fire as justice and love. Their faith in God will allow their works to withstand the fire (to a different extent for each individual, i think, as Paul mentions in 1 Cor.) The unbeliever will experience God's fire as something quite a bit different. As what they based their entire existence on will burn away and they are left with the nothing.

The controversy of this book is does the unbeliever have another shot after he realizes his terrible folly. i have no clue. and so far as I have read neither does Bell. He just seems to lay out the facts from his point of view.

Whatever one can take away from this book is to realize Hell is not some over-the-top torture chamber underground, but something that is even more real and if you think about it, scary. The book makes you realize Hell may be closer then you think. When people preach of it in the 'lake of fire' sense, it makes people distance themselves from the idea, which could be the biggest mistake of them all.
5/1/11 7:06 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Hebrews 3:

14 For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.


16 And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn’t it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? 18 And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? 19 So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

Hebrews 4:

1 God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. 2 For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God.[a] 3 For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said,

“In my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest,’”

even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. 4 We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.”


8 Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. 9 So there is a special rest[f] still waiting for the people of God. 10 For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11 So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.


Hebrews 5:

9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Hebrews 9:

27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, 28 so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.
5/1/11 9:16 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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What do you guys think about the above verses and what they say about salvation for all mankind, including those who purposely deny God or ones who choose another God than him due to their culture?

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