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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Are any of the Kodokan Throws Now Illegal?


3/7/11 7:37 PM
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HULC
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I had a Look through the Kodokan Judo book today and there were a few throws in there that i've never seen used by Judokas before. One of them looked similar to a belly to belly suplex, and nobody at my dojo has even touched on anything that high amplitude since i've been there.
3/7/11 7:42 PM
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HULC
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Ah, i think it's called the Ura-Nage, and it doesn't look like it is illegal. Which makes this a kind of pointless thread.

Apologies. :)
3/7/11 8:39 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Uranage is seldom used by any judokas. There are other drop and sacrifice throws used in high level competition. I don't rememeber seeing it in the 100's of world class judo matches I have watched. We have practiced it in class a few times (on the crash pad) just to make sure we have did all the throws. I think our sensei is the only one who can demonstrate it correctly. What you do see in lower levels of competition is the opponent comes in for a throw you block with your hips,grab them around the waist and fall backwards turning them so you score yuko and follow up with mat work.
3/8/11 1:20 AM
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sdjudoka
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kani basami and kawazu gake
3/8/11 5:31 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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kata garuma, at least in the Kodokan style, is now illegal.

I love to use ura nage, if you have a quick step in, you can catch a lot of guys, but make sure to keep your arms relatively low.
3/8/11 3:11 PM
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HULC
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So Kata Garuma, Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake are all now illegal? What are the reasons?

Also, do *any* Judo clubs still teach atemi waza?
3/8/11 6:31 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake were banned for safety reasons. Too many broken legs and blown out knees from tori doing the throw wrong.

Kata Garuma was banned in 2008, along with all grabs below the belt in initial attacks, as the IJF wanted to get rid of "wrestling style" judo, and do "pure" judo. IMO, it's bullshit, and made a lot of the local guys I compete against weaker players overall.
3/9/11 10:58 AM
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Steve72
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There are still some legal ways to do kata guruma, but the traditional way and most variants are illegal.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Kodokan throws", but if you mean the Gokyo (the initial 40 techniques), I think kata guruma is the only one illegal as taught. Kawazu gake and kane besami aren't in the gokyo (I think they're in another grouping of "newly accepted techniques")
3/9/11 11:02 AM
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Steve72
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Follow up:

Yep. This is the "Shinmeisho No Waza". I've bolded the ones that are illegal as taught under judo rules (with a couple exceptions...like using them as a direct counter). I've bolded and underlined the ones that are flat-out illegal regardless of how used.

1. Morote Gari

2. Kuchiki Taoshi

3. Kibisu Gaeshi


4. Uchi Mata Sukashi

5. Daki Age

6. Tsubame Gaeshi

7. Kouchi Gaeshi

8. Ouchi Gaeshi

9. Osoto Gaeshi

10. Harai Goshi Gaeshi

11. Uchi Mata Gaeshi

12. Hane Goshi Gaeshi

13. Kani Basami

14. Osoto Makikomi

15. Kawazu Gake

16. Harai Makikomi

17. Uchi Mata Makikomi

18. Sode Tsurikomi Goshi

19. Ippon Seoinage
3/9/11 11:28 AM
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Weinstein
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Recently I've seen some local refs give ippons for morote gari. The key appears to be using ko soto gari as the penetration step.
3/10/11 2:07 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Weinstein, it's a very subjective thing, which is what pisses me off about the rule. Sure, many refs are giving leeway to morote gari. Most likely, these are refs from areas where the wrestling style was very popular, and the refs don't really give a fuck what the IJF thinks.

On the other hand, in my area here in Japan, the refs hate (and I mean fucking loathe) anything that isn't a classical "Japanese style" technique. For example, even when morote gari was legal, I could pick a dude up and slam him like it was a Arn Anderson spinebuster, and get a "waza-ari." Hell, there was one old fuck who gave me a "yuko" for it. Now, I wouldn't even dare dangle my arm below their belt, for getting called on a grab and disqualified.

It's the subjective bullshit like this that I hate about the new rules.
3/10/11 3:18 AM
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Bently
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Chocolate Shatner - Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake were banned for safety reasons. Too many broken legs and blown out knees from tori doing the throw wrong.

Kata Garuma was banned in 2008, along with all grabs below the belt in initial attacks, as the IJF wanted to get rid of "wrestling style" judo, and do "pure" judo. IMO, it's bullshit, and made a lot of the local guys I compete against weaker players overall.


Hey Chocolate, how's the knee doing?

Kata Guruma is NOT banned from competition. As you note, grabbing with the hands or arms below the "belt" are not allowed as intitial attacks, but are OK as the second throw in a combination or as a counter attack.

Your opinion regarding the reasons for the change in rules is misinformed. I think it has already been explained here why the rule changes were made, so I'm not going to get into a debate about it. I do not agree with how the IJF acted, either, BTW.

To the OP, leg grabs below the belt are not "banned" from Judo, only in IJF regulated competitions. Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake and Daki Age are not allowed in competitions either. They can be practiced if your coach so desires, but are rarely practiced or done nowadays.

Ben



3/10/11 3:22 AM
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Bently
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Weinstein - Recently I've seen some local refs give ippons for morote gari. The key appears to be using ko soto gari as the penetration step.


Good point. As long as the first throw is engaged, it is then legal to grab one or both legs or pants.

Chocolate, I feel you pain, but in Japan Morote Gari has not been much liked for a long time.

Ben
3/10/11 6:01 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Bently,

Knee is getting better. My muscular strength is almost all the way back, with my protective brace on (just for security, mostly), I'm squatting 150 kilograms right now, with no pain in the knee. However, this is also the period doctors call the most dangerous for ACL patients, because while the muscles are back, the blood vessels that nourish the new ACL have not fully grown in yet, so the ACL does not recover as quickly as it should. As such, I am very limited in any sort of loaded twisting motion, but can do some light jogging on softer surfaces (like dirt or grass). Starting in May, I can add in twisting and ballistic leg exercises, with an aim of coming back in June/July.

As for the like or dislike of morote gari in Japan, yeah, in the "inaka" areas of the countryside, it f-ing sucks. And yes, while it can be allowed on a second attack, with the caveat that the first attack has to be a "dedicated attack", it leaves so much leeway for referee prejudice and feeling that I think it blows.

And yeah, I read and listened to all the IJF reasons for the change in rules as well, and I still think they suck. They can call it a silk purse, but it still looks like a pig's ear to me.
3/10/11 6:11 AM
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HULC
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Cheers for the info.

It seems a shame for so many techniques to be banned, the wrestling type throws added to the contest imho.
3/10/11 8:02 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Above all the personal likes/dislikes for the rules the world class judo level is contining to prosper. I see more Mongolians than ever even though the new rules probably affected their style of judo more than anyone. Adding in $$$ incentives really made a huge difference. At the local level I am seeing more ippons than ever. The elimination of "koka judo" is a big success. I still would like to see a shito for inadvertant leg grab before HSM.
3/10/11 11:14 AM
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Steve72
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Oh, traditional sukui-nage



(and its modernized version called te guruma)



would be illegal as well, as taught (with the caveats bently listed above)
3/10/11 10:15 PM
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Bently
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Chocolate Shatner - Bently,

Knee is getting better. My muscular strength is almost all the way back, with my protective brace on (just for security, mostly), I'm squatting 150 kilograms right now, with no pain in the knee. However, this is also the period doctors call the most dangerous for ACL patients, because while the muscles are back, the blood vessels that nourish the new ACL have not fully grown in yet, so the ACL does not recover as quickly as it should. As such, I am very limited in any sort of loaded twisting motion, but can do some light jogging on softer surfaces (like dirt or grass). Starting in May, I can add in twisting and ballistic leg exercises, with an aim of coming back in June/July.

As for the like or dislike of morote gari in Japan, yeah, in the "inaka" areas of the countryside, it f-ing sucks. And yes, while it can be allowed on a second attack, with the caveat that the first attack has to be a "dedicated attack", it leaves so much leeway for referee prejudice and feeling that I think it blows.

And yeah, I read and listened to all the IJF reasons for the change in rules as well, and I still think they suck. They can call it a silk purse, but it still looks like a pig's ear to me.



Glad to hear you are recovering quickly, I went through the same thing, although I never in my life could squat 150 kg. It took me a year before I was doing Judo again, and another 6 months before I had gotten over all the psychological BS to go with the recovery.

The rules suck, I agree, although they have had the desired effect. If people had not been abusing the leg grabs for tactical reasons, they would probably still be around. They may be back again after 2012, who knows?

It's just an opportunity to work on other parts of Judo. Sounds like your Morote Gari is pretty good already!

Ben
3/10/11 10:19 PM
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Bently
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HULC - Cheers for the info.

It seems a shame for so many techniques to be banned, the wrestling type throws added to the contest imho.


How about some reading comprehension? The "wrestling throws" are not BANNED. They are legal in IJF competitions as counters or as the second or later throw in a combination.

You can still practice them in the dojo, depending on what your coach wants you to do.

Ben
3/14/11 1:21 PM
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HULC
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Get over yourself Bently.
3/16/11 11:22 PM
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Bently
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HULC - Get over yourself Bently.


Go back to school, if you ever went, and learn to read. Stop posting that things are "banned" or "illegal" when they are not. If you don't like being corrected, then stay off the Internet.

Ben
3/22/11 11:28 AM
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Radd
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"Oh, traditional sukui-nage"

I have a question: was there ever a version of this in traditional judo (sport or self defense) that involved compression or striking? That is, the elbown would either strike the sternum or compress downward on the sternum to cause the throw?
3/22/11 11:32 AM
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Wade Garrett
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Bently-

Can't speak for all judo everywhere, but at the tournament I was at Saturday refs were handing out penalties for leg touches like M & Ms, one guy got DQed for grabbing a single to counter Uchi Mata.

(To be fair, the DQ may have been for the fact that he held onto the leg and kept running round and round the mats while every referee in the building was yelling "Mattei! Stop! LET GO #$*!")

Also, can anyone clarify the rules on bear hugs? I thought it only applied if you clasped your hands togather (as in a Greco Roman body lock) is that the case?
3/22/11 5:08 PM
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judoblackbelt
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My understanding of the rule is you can't clasp your hands together. The Mongolians (Hashbaatar-66k)and a few others still use the "bear hug" grip when in close. Not used by the other 99% of the world class judoka.
3/23/11 5:49 AM
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Bently
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Wade Garrett - Bently-

Can't speak for all judo everywhere, but at the tournament I was at Saturday refs were handing out penalties for leg touches like M & Ms, one guy got DQed for grabbing a single to counter Uchi Mata.

(To be fair, the DQ may have been for the fact that he held onto the leg and kept running round and round the mats while every referee in the building was yelling "Mattei! Stop! LET GO #$*!")

Also, can anyone clarify the rules on bear hugs? I thought it only applied if you clasped your hands togather (as in a Greco Roman body lock) is that the case?


Are you in Louisiana by chance?

I've been to numerous big shiai in Canada, and one in Washington. Nobody was trigger happy on "touching" the legs. In fact, just incidental contact is not a penalty.

Not every where is up to speed on correct interpretation. Either that or the event you attended was full of high school wrestlers!

Ben

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