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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Explain this to me.


3/13/11 5:54 PM
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andre
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Full Tilt Poker Game #28996347240: $750,000 Guarantee (220637027), Table 1 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:47:12 ET - 2011/03/13
Seat 1: wivawat04 (5,550)
Seat 2: PJShark (6,471)
Seat 3: ALLINTMAR (5,180)
Seat 4: D_Pitch67 (4,940)
Seat 5: TheMiltMan (4,910)
Seat 6: m827 (2,900)
Seat 7: itsnotballet (5,089)
Seat 8: Exitonly (4,820)
Seat 9: Frufo (5,140)
PJShark posts the small blind of 10
ALLINTMAR posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to itsnotballet [Qh Qc]
D_Pitch67 has 15 seconds left to act
D_Pitch67 folds
TheMiltMan folds
m827 calls 20
itsnotballet raises to 99
Exitonly folds
Frufo folds
wivawat04 folds
PJShark folds
ALLINTMAR calls 79
m827 calls 79
*** FLOP *** [Tc 8s 3h]
ALLINTMAR checks
m827 checks
itsnotballet bets 306
ALLINTMAR calls 306
m827 calls 306
*** TURN *** [Tc 8s 3h] [4s]
ALLINTMAR checks
m827 checks
itsnotballet bets 1,229
ALLINTMAR calls 1,229
m827 folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc 8s 3h 4s] [2h]
ALLINTMAR bets 3,546, and is all in
itsnotballet calls 3,455, and is all in
Uncalled bet of 91 returned to ALLINTMAR
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALLINTMAR shows [5c Ac] a straight, Five high
itsnotballet mucks
ALLINTMAR wins the pot (10,593) with a straight, Five high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10,593 | Rake 0
Board: [Tc 8s 3h 4s 2h]
Seat 1: wivawat04 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: PJShark (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: ALLINTMAR (big blind) showed [5c Ac] and won (10,593) with a straight, Five high
Seat 4: D_Pitch67 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: TheMiltMan didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: m827 folded on the Turn
Seat 7: itsnotballet mucked [Qh Qc] - a pair of Queens
Seat 8: Exitonly didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Frufo didn't bet (folded)
3/13/11 6:12 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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I'm going to give you the "while you lost the hand, in the grand scheme of things you won because buddy there was getting his cash in with the worst of it", but I'm looking at that and banging my head against the wall for you.

Buddy has 7 outs on the river, so roughly 14% chance to hit, which makes you a 6 to 1 favorite to take it down.

Blinds are still at 10/20 so I'm assuming this is fairly early in the tourney and you don't have much history with buddy here. Did you get caught out on a big bluff before this? Were you playing very loose?

3/13/11 6:19 PM
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andre
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It was literally my second hand. The first hand wasnt any kind of bluff.
3/13/11 8:58 PM
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Kamikaze Emu
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Ouch man, I feel for you.

I've been focusing on cash games so I don't have anything to compare that against but I can imagine 2nd hand and done is a rough feeling.

I was trying to think of something uplifting to say but about 10 minutes ago I blew a breaker in my house and sort of electrified myself in the process when my putty blade hit the side of an uncovered plug during renovations so I'm a little fuzzy in the brain right now. Maybe that in itself is uplifting? Not sure.
3/14/11 1:00 AM
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andre
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Thanks, Emu!

Im near the final table of the Sunday Mulligan, so all might end well! ;)

Thanks again for the kindness!
3/14/11 1:40 AM
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VectorWega
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Sick run (out in 16th).  That was a great spot to raise all in.  Would have been impressed if you had done that with nothing.  But alas you had the AQ sooted.  Apparently your opponent was a pro and probably felt the same way.
3/14/11 2:43 AM
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andre
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Thanks, Vector. Didnt know you were watching. That call with 44 was just sick. No wonder the guy is 41K in the hole on FT (although that may change..lol).
3/14/11 3:51 AM
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wreckker
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 good run andre..
3/14/11 5:15 AM
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andre
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Thanks! I also cashed in the Daily Ninety Grand today! :)
3/14/11 9:23 AM
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VectorWega
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andre - Thanks, Vector. Didnt know you were watching. That call with 44 was just sick. No wonder the guy is 41K in the hole on FT (although that may change..lol).

 It looks like he was down 25k over the last 100 games on full tilt but he has won over $3 million including a win in the PokerStars Sunday 500 earlier this year.
3/14/11 3:08 PM
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andre
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Thanks...with sharkscope Im not sure how to see past 250 results. Do you use OPR? I need to start using that instead.

Man, can you take a look at the first hand in this thread again and tell me what the hell the guy could be thinking? Seriously. Isnt that a strange hand?
3/14/11 8:39 PM
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VectorWega
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Edited: 03/15/11 4:57 AM
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When someone has made that much online you can generally just google their screenname.  Lots came up.

As for the initial hand, there is really no reason to analyze the player's thought process.  If you look at PTR, he has a rating of 3 (out of 100).  He's down 18k in cash games and is probably one of the worst players alive. 
3/15/11 1:27 AM
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andre
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Thanks, Vector. At that moment I felt like there was some truth to the rumors about FT being rigged. I just couldnt believe it happened the way that it did.

Thanks again.
3/16/11 5:15 PM
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carcaju
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Summary - your Queens got cracked by a straight on the river. He paid all the way to the river. Bad poker paid off.
Cue the FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU guy.
Tough break.

Can I get some feedback on my hand last week please.
It was a simple pub game, but I want to know whether I played it right. I will try and post as much detail as I can remember. Please don't flame as I can't post the depth you want.

Background. I am a pretty tight player who makes the state finals every season (top 5 at the venue) and usually win multiple tournaments every season. I have an rudimentary feel for pot odds, card odds etc, but not like the pro's or top casino cash players. I don't tend to give tells that I know of, never show my cards unless I have bluffed (sometimes then), and feel that I can usually get a decent read on someone, as we all play together each week. Most weeks I make the final table and I am always in the points (average number of runners is about 60 - top 15 get points, game usually lasts from 730pm to 10:45/11pm with 2 or 3 15 min breaks).

Starting stack of $2000
Table of 9, with most people having a very similar stack size, no big chip leader at our table.


I was big blind with blinds being 50/100

Hole cards were 9H, 2H
6 callers including small, big, 1 after UTG, 2 after UTG, 3 after UTG and behind the button.
I checked.
600 pot.
Flop comes 9S, 9D and 2C.
Small blind checked, I bet 250 into the pot due to the table being aggressive with every hand being raised preflop and wanting to generate a decent pot size.
Guy 1 after the UTG called, as did 2 UTG and the behind the button ummed and ahhed and nearly lays his hand down, but tells me he really wants to see what I have got. He calls. Small blind folds.
1600 pot.
Turn comes AS and I moved all in with about 1850 (I had a bit more than starting stack), after I had figured at that stage only pocket Aces have me beat at this point, and if he has them, then kudos for calling a made full boat with two pair on the flop. Everyone else moved out of the way and behind the button snap called the all in and rolled over the pocket Aces.
I needed a 9 and a 9 only on the river to give me quads, but it was a nothing card.

What say you poker pro's, bad play, bad beat, bad positon, bad betting, or suck it up princess, it's poker.

Have at it.
3/16/11 5:26 PM
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andre
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carcaju - Summary - your Queens got cracked by a straight on the river. He paid all the way to the river. Bad poker paid off.
Cue the FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU guy.
Tough break.

Can I get some feedback on my hand last week please.
It was a simple pub game, but I want to know whether I played it right. I will try and post as much detail as I can remember. Please don't flame as I can't post the depth you want.

Background. I am a pretty tight player who makes the state finals every season (top 5 at the venue) and usually win multiple tournaments every season. I have an rudimentary feel for pot odds, card odds etc, but not like the pro's or top casino cash players. I don't tend to give tells that I know of, never show my cards unless I have bluffed (sometimes then), and feel that I can usually get a decent read on someone, as we all play together each week. Most weeks I make the final table and I am always in the points (average number of runners is about 60 - top 15 get points, game usually lasts from 730pm to 10:45/11pm with 2 or 3 15 min breaks).

Starting stack of $2000
Table of 9, with most people having a very similar stack size, no big chip leader at our table.


I was big blind with blinds being 50/100

Hole cards were 9H, 2H
6 callers including small, big, 1 after UTG, 2 after UTG, 3 after UTG and behind the button.
I checked.
600 pot.
Flop comes 9S, 9D and 2C.
Small blind checked, I bet 250 into the pot due to the table being aggressive with every hand being raised preflop and wanting to generate a decent pot size.
Guy 1 after the UTG called, as did 2 UTG and the behind the button ummed and ahhed and nearly lays his hand down, but tells me he really wants to see what I have got. He calls. Small blind folds.
1600 pot.
Turn comes AS and I moved all in with about 1850 (I had a bit more than starting stack), after I had figured at that stage only pocket Aces have me beat at this point, and if he has them, then kudos for calling a made full boat with two pair on the flop. Everyone else moved out of the way and behind the button snap called the all in and rolled over the pocket Aces.
I needed a 9 and a 9 only on the river to give me quads, but it was a nothing card.

What say you poker pro's, bad play, bad beat, bad positon, bad betting, or suck it up princess, it's poker.

Have at it.


I think your bet on the flop is too small with that many callers. You could have gotten more value, I think, with a bigger bet.

The limped aces was a "bad beat" for you considering the flop, although the better starting hand winning is hard to consider a true bad beat, imo.

I dont think you needed to bet bigger to get any folds, but had the ace limper not made a bigger boat you would have lost value, I think.
3/16/11 5:27 PM
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andre
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Actually, I didnt realize that the 6 included you and the small blind. I think your bet size was good. I thought 8 of you were in the pot.
3/17/11 9:48 AM
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carcaju
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Thanks Andre. Yep, only 6 in the hand. I didn't want to scare people off with to big of a bet on the flop, as people know that most times I only fire at the pot if I have hit or have strong hole cards, and that being the case, they would have assumed I hit the 2 for a set on the flop, which would scare most playable hands away if they did not hit and only had overs. Even most middle/high pockets. Meh, thanks again for the input. I get what you mean about not being a true bad beat given pre flop he has the best starting hand in poker, especially compared to 9 2 suited :)
3/17/11 8:06 PM
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VectorWega
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carcaju - as people know that most times I only fire at the pot if I have hit or have strong hole cards, and that being the case, they would have assumed I hit the 2 for a set on the flop, which would scare most playable hands away   
I think you just illustrated the biggest problem with your play right here.  How can you go into a gun fight with a knife?  How can you hurt your opponent if you are using a nerf knife?

And am I to understand the guy limped with aces after several other limpers?  Any scenario that doesn't involve him losing his entire stack is a bad beat.
3/18/11 10:48 PM
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carcaju
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I do not follow VW?
I was big blind and it was called all around to me and I checked a crap hand (9 2 suited).
I flopped the boat, maybe he had the other 2 and had trips too. Either way, he was infornt preflop, behind on the flop and infront on the turn.
Yes, he did limp in with pocket aces. I have seen him play pocket aces 3 different ways. Slow playing them is dangerous, but it was a hand I did not put him on, so it was obviously effective. I guessed a top 6 hand.

You mean it was a bad beat that his aces didn't get cracked with that many runners or am I missing something?

What is the bad play you speak of? Your comment seems vague.

Politely asking.
3/18/11 11:06 PM
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andre
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I think what VW is saying is that deception is a huge part of the game and if your opponents know exactly what your bets represent then you are at a severe disadvantage.
3/19/11 2:22 AM
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VectorWega
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 ^ exactly

In regards to the play with aces, that is simply a horrible play by your opponent (worse than horrible).  It worked out for him in this instance but that doesn't make it the right play.  Hell, you could push all in preflop in early position with 2-9 and flop a boat but that doesn't mean it is the right play.

BTW, aces weren't the only hand that had you beat on the turn.  Ace-9 also had you beat.
3/19/11 5:49 PM
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carcaju
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I think to better articulate it would be to say I have a tight table image, which is why I am able to bluff effectively when I pick the right spot.
Andre, he doesn't know what my bets represent, merely that I don't usually bet with garbage. I use deception all the time. Limp when strong, raise when strong. Weak - same (depending on how stupidly aggressive the table is). I think the point I am making is that in this type of game people get called down ALL the time and often get exposed. I can defend my blinds or steal other peoples' even when I am weak, because they respect the table image.

But if you guys would like to continue giving me advice, I'm all up for it. Cheers.
3/19/11 7:49 PM
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andre
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Thats cool, carcaju. As long as you're aware of your table image and you use that image to make the appropriate plays, then it doesnt matter whether the image is tight or loose. The only time its a problem is when your play matches your image in key hands, imo.
3/19/11 10:21 PM
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carcaju
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Nope. I have a style of play I guess (tight), but even when people think I am positionally betting to steal blinds they are reluctant to call because often when they do they find I have simply woken up to a monster. Instead they will just articulate that they think they know what I am doing and then fold.
What about you Andre, do you find your play matching your image in key hands sometimes? What would I do to change it if I did? I don't have set betting patterns for certain hands or anything like that. I tend to play the hand according to the table and the people in the hand, as well as my hand strength.

Was A 9 and pocket A's the only two hands that were ahead on the turn?

VW - I don't think I even thought of A 9 to be honest. I guess that exposes a hole in my thought process.
3/20/11 2:33 PM
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andre
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"What about you Andre, do you find your play matching your image in key hands sometimes?"

Definitely! That's how I got the image! ;) I think you have to be able to adapt and play tight at times and loose at others. At least thats what Im working on--adapting to the table to accomplish whatever Im trying to accomplish with my bet (get an opponent to fold, for value, to induce a raise or a bluff, to block).

I think PR, Wreckker or a bunch of others here are better equipped to answer your questions about changing (if you even need to). Im in no position to give advice like that. :)

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