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HolyGround >> After Jesus, before Paul...


3/24/11 3:57 PM
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Grakman
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 .. what did the early believers do to 'worship' God in the period of time between Jesus' death and before the letters of Paul and the gospels began to circulate? Pretty much every church service today consists of some form of singing, reading of the Gospels and or the Epistles, and communion depending on the denomination. What did the church do BEFORE there were Gospels and Epistles to read? Did they read from the OT? Was a sermon or homily always a part of worship?

3/24/11 10:22 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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The apostles would probably preach what they had heard directly from Jesus, they would probably communally say the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught them, and they would celebrate the Eucharist. Perhaps they would ask those present to pray for others in the community who needed help. Those would be my guesses. It was all new, so a lot of it was probably teaching.
3/27/11 4:24 PM
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reverend john
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you see it in acts they met house to house, they submitted to the apostles teachings (which means the apostles were sharing with them the teaching of Jesus) they were devoted to the care of each other, and to prayer. Worship wasn't an event, it was a way of life, and they were called "the way" In addition, the Eucharist was taken in the midst of the communal meal

rev
3/28/11 11:50 AM
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figure four
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you do know the other apostles were alive from Jesus' death and the time of apostle Paul?

3/28/11 3:58 PM
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Grakman
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figure four - you do know the other apostles were alive from Jesus' death and the time of apostle Paul?


 Is this for me?
3/29/11 9:55 AM
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DyingBreed
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i wish the lord would translate me, if only for a day, to back to this time. i would love to see how they worshiped.


probably in spirit and in truth as a way of life as mentioned earlier and not just a weekly event.


and something tells me this is the way it should be today. just as it was in the book of acts. but we are too busy, and have let tradition and ritual invade the church to the point of hardly letting God have his way in our lives. we put him a little box and get him out and play with him when we feel like it, or when facing a crisis

speaking from experience here
3/29/11 2:45 PM
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toelocku
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reverend john?-?you see it in acts they met house to house, they submitted to the apostles teachings (which means the apostles were sharing with them the teaching of Jesus) they were devoted to the care of each other, and to prayer. Worship wasn't an event, it was a way of life, and they were called "the way" In addition, the Eucharist was taken in the midst of the communal meal

rev


the apostle were teachingthe old testament and how they showed Christ as well as Christ teachings. the 'eucharist' was NOT taken and in fact was prohibited by Paul...

1Cr 11:16 and if any one doth think to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the assemblies of God.


1Cr 11:17 And this declaring, I give no praise, because not for the better, but for the worse ye come together;


1Cr 11:18 for first, indeed, ye coming together in an assembly, I hear of divisions being among you, and partly I believe [it],


1Cr 11:19 for it behoveth sects also to be among you, that those approved may become manifest among you;


1Cr 11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place -- it is not to eat the Lord's supper;


1Cr 11:21 for each his own supper doth take before in the eating, and one is hungry, and another is drunk;


1Cr 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? ******I do not praise!*************


1Cr 11:23 For I -- I received from the Lord that which also I did deliver to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread,


1Cr 11:24 and having given thanks, he brake, and said, `Take ye, eat ye, this is my body, that for you is being broken; this do ye -- to the remembrance of me.'


1Cr 11:25 In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink [it] -- to the remembrance of me;'


1Cr 11:26 for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth -- till he may come;


1Cr 11:27 so that whoever may eat this bread or may drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, guilty he shall be of the body and blood of the Lord:


1Cr 11:28 and let a man be proving himself, and so of the bread let him eat, and of the cup let him drink;


1Cr 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink -- not discerning the body of the Lord.


1Cr 11:30 Because of this, among you many [are] weak and sickly, and sleep do many;


1Cr 11:31 for if ourselves we were discerning, we would not be being judged,


1Cr 11:32 and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened, that with the world we may not be condemned;


1Cr 11:33 so then, my brethren, coming together to eat, for one another wait ye;


1Cr 11:34 and if any one is hungry, at home let him eat, that to judgment ye may not come together; and the rest, whenever I may come, I shall arrange.


this physical tradion like all others are ok to do but doesnt make one a bit spiritual. it blows m e away that the church just 'overlooks' pauls explicit command NOT to do what th e whole church does. its crazy...
3/29/11 5:08 PM
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Grakman
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eh.... I think it says the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, toelock.

Paul is pointing out sarcastically that they are coming together to eat and drink INSTEAD of partaking of the Lord's Supper. They are treating the communal meal / eucharist as a party, as it were. They are being chastised for not treating the ritual with the dignity and respect it deserves, and says that some among them find themselves sick because of this disrespect. When he says 'why are you coming together? It's not for the Lord's Supper!' would be like a football coach chewing out his team when they are down 54-0, asking them 'Why are you here on this field, because it sure isn't to play football!!"

3/29/11 5:28 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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toelocku - the apostle were teachingthe old testament and how they showed Christ as well as Christ teachings. the 'eucharist' was NOT taken and in fact was prohibited by Paul...this physical tradion like all others are ok to do but doesnt make one a bit spiritual. it blows m e away that the church just 'overlooks' pauls explicit command NOT to do what th e whole church does. its crazy...


Just as Grakman said.

I Corinthians 11:26-30 clearly states that the Eucharist IS the literal body and blood of Christ. St. Paul is stating that you are not to partake of the Eucharist lightly (i.e., doing it as simply a “physical tradition”), or in a state of sin: Look again at verse 27:

1Cr 11:27 so that whoever may eat this bread or may drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, guilty he shall be of the body and blood of the Lord:


1Cr 11:28 and let a man be proving himself, and so of the bread let him eat, and of the cup let him drink;


1Cr 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink -- not discerning the body of the Lord.

That is to say, you should be in a state of Grace (spiritually worthy) before partaking of the Eucharist, and one should examine his own soul (“be proving himself”) and confess and be forgiven for his sins.

This very verse tells the reader that the literal presence of Christ is in the Eucharist. The presence of God’s body is necessary for an offense to be committed against it (“guilty shall he be of the body and blood of the Lord.”). One cannot offend against the very Body and Blood of Christ unless these are present in the Sacrament.

If a person had sinfully eaten some of the bread or drank some of the wine of the Eucharist, and the Eucharist was only a “picture” or a “representation” of the Last Supper, how would he be guilty? If I do violence to a picture or a statue of a man, without touching the man himself, I have not committed homicide.

Without the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, St. Paul’s words would be meaningless.

In the larger context of St. Paul’s letter, he is obviously referring to abuses of the Lord’s Supper among the Corinthian churches, and they are acting as if it is merely a common meal rather than a Sacrament, and are not sharing the Eucharist, and are drinking the sacramental wine to become drunk, so St. Paul says they are not even practicing the Lord’s Supper: “When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and one is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the Church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? I shall not.”(RSV)

Clearly, Paul approved of celebrating the Eucharist in a holy and respectful manner, not as a mere “physical tradition,” as the Corinthians were doing. He spoke elsewhere in 1 Corinthians when telling the Corinthians not to fall back into idol worship: “I speak to sensible men; judge for yourself what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor 10: 15-16) So it would be hard to argue that St. Paul opposed the celebration of the Eucharist.

The early Christian Church obviously felt the same way. As Ignatius of Antioch wrote to the Smyrnaeans, circa 110 AD, in referring to those who are in error: “They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which our Father, in his goodness, raised up again.”(Epistula ad Smyrnaeos, Chapter 6:2)

In 150 AD, Justin Martyr wrote: “We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to take of it, except one who believes our teachings to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these: but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of the incarnated Jesus.” (Apologia prima pro Christianis, Chapter 65)

Or compare the Didache, a handbook and catechism written for the early Christian Church somewhere between the late 1st and early 2nd century:

"Celebrate the Eucharist as follows: Say over the cup: “we give you thanks, Father, for the holy vine of David, your servant, which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever”.

Over the broken bread say: “we give you thanks, Father, for the life and the knowledge which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. As this broken bread scattered on the mountains was gathered and became one, so too, may your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom. For glory and power are yours through Jesus Christ for ever”.

Do not let anyone eat or drink of your eucharist except those who have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For the statement of the Lord applies here also: Do not give to dogs what is holy.

When you finish the meal, offer thanks in this manner: “We thank you, holy Father, for your name which you enshrined in our hearts. We thank you for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you revealed to us through your servant Jesus. To you be glory for ever. Almighty ruler, you created all things for the sake of your name; you gave men food and drink to enjoy so that they might give you thanks. Now you have favored us through Jesus your servant with spiritual food and drink as well as with eternal life. Above all we thank you because you are mighty. To you be glory for ever.

Remember, Lord, your Church and deliver her from all evil. Perfect her in your love; and, once she has been sanctified, gather her together from the four winds into the kingdom which you have prepared for her. For power and glory are yours for ever.

May grace come and this world pass away! Hosanna to the God of David. If anyone is holy, let him come. If anyone is not, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen”.

On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the nations."

But what do they know? Just a bunch of dead white guys who were much closer to Jesus and the Apostles and St. Paul in time and place than we are, all of whom believed in offering the Eucharist each Sunday.



3/30/11 1:22 AM
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reverend john
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yeah that was ridiculous toelock

rev
4/2/11 1:43 PM
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toelocku
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sorryfor the lateness computers broke...

to allthe above read this...

11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place -- it is not to eat the Lord's supper;


read this verse 5 times as you can hopefully see, WHEN YE COME TOGETHER(LIKE AT CHURCH) IT IS NOT TO EAT THELORDS SUPPER/FEAST. the night Jesus says to do these things he was not insituting a physical ritual which if that was what he was doing would have been contradicting himself cause that was what he called out the pharisees etc for doing making physical outward rituals somehow seem 'important'. drinking wine and bread DOESNT make one spiritual, this was what the Jews were doing judgin how spiritual they were based on the OUTSIDE of the CUP(what the wine goes in aka...you) and Jesus spoke against it over and over.



though we can do them physcially and not sin is true but it becomes a sin when you do what you guys are doing saying what i'm saying is A false doctrine judging wrongly your ''brother' for not doing these things LITERALLY PHYSICALy but were a command to be done IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH how God says He must be worshiped.

and thinking it physically changes to literal flesh and blood like the catholics do is DUMB AND A LIE...PERIOD. this would if that what was he really meant physically speaking he would break the law of MOses whiuch he says not one jot or tittle will pass away til ALL is fulfilled.

the blood/wine bread/flesh are symbolic as everyone of the disiples understood cause they didn't start eating him right there like some kind ofn zombie.lol.

He was speaking ALL spiritually when instituting this command. sorry for thos of you who think doing it physically makes you spiritual. btw...we are not even given any specific day or time it was dependant on the person and how its done by the church is MADE UP OUT OF THIN AIR. IOW...a tradition of man and not to be done as Paul says...

so like i said the disciples indeed understand this like Paul. maybe ya'll need to evaluate your way of worship(like i am doing day by day) by the bible an d NOT the traditions of men?

4/2/11 1:50 PM
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toelocku
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Edited: 04/02/11 1:52 PM
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also spirit and truth are not physical things therfore it follows logically that worship would not be physical. every action we have is first started in our mind which i n 'in the heavens'.
4/2/11 8:01 PM
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reverend john
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you are misreading the passage, what it says is that when you come together you are not coming together to take communion as you should, but are instead being only concerned with being glutonous and getting drunk. That instead of a meal celebrating the oneness of the community, and the egalitarian nature of the church, as well as the reliance on Christ's broken body and blood as our saving grace, you are looking after yourselfs, and in that you are suffering even physical affliction.

Jesus was pretty clear when he said we would eat his flesh and drink his blood, and that the communion meal was doing that.

rev
4/2/11 8:24 PM
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gord96
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Toelock. i agree with John that you are misreading what that passage is saying. Phone Post
4/7/11 12:28 PM
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toelocku
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'ok' if thats what you believe...

i'm not misreading anything, you understand these verses in light of other scriptures as to what i explained in my last post but se la via...

4/7/11 3:19 PM
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gord96
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toelocku - 
11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place -- it is not to eat the Lord's supper;


read this verse 5 times as you can hopefully see, WHEN YE COME TOGETHER(LIKE AT CHURCH) IT IS NOT TO EAT THELORDS SUPPER/FEAST.



different translations can make it sound alot different...

1 Corinthians 11:20 (New Century Version)

20 When you come together, you are not really eating the Lord's Supper.


1 Corinthians 11:20 (New International Version, ©2011)

20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat,


1 Corinthians 11:20 (Contemporary English Version)

20When you meet together, you don't really celebrate the Lord's Supper.


1 Corinthians 11:20 (GOD'S WORD Translation)

20When you gather in the same place, you can't possibly be eating the Lord's Supper.


1 Corinthians 11:20 (Amplified Bible)

20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,
4/8/11 11:44 PM
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reverend john
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it is amazing to me how people refuse to do historical research, or even textual study

rev
4/9/11 1:13 AM
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TheStewedOwl
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I think a good study Bible, for whichever translation you prefer, is a good purchase. At least, it will give you some idea if your interpretation of scripture is way out of the mainstream.
4/9/11 1:41 AM
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gord96
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reverend john - it is amazing to me how people refuse to do historical research...

rev


agreed.
4/9/11 1:45 PM
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DyingBreed
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TheStewedOwl - I think a good study Bible, for whichever translation you prefer, is a good purchase. At least, it will give you some idea if your interpretation of scripture is way out of the mainstream.




agreed. for the niv version, get the life application study bible, or the "quest" study bible. the quest is a great one for different questions that may pop in your mind when reading the word. every time ive been reading and wondered something (for example, "what was 'casting lots'?") the quest always had the answer on the side of the page.

other good ones are the esv study bible,


hcsb study bible (if you are into more simple straight forward answers to what to me seems obvious)


or the fire bible global edition (if you are penecostal)


there are many study bibles to choose from, and its a hobby of mine to collect them. by the way, anyone know of any study bibles that just blew you away? list em!


please :)
4/10/11 1:42 AM
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reverend john
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I think they are mostly shit, they are watered down biblical encyclopedias and commentaries. If you really want to study instead of just getting some opinions get real study materials, not just a little additive

rev
4/10/11 11:54 AM
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toelocku
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dyingbreed


if you want precise study material go to the heb/greek look up the word uses inthe bible then with the spirit use your brain and come to an accurate translation

and as for those other comments...

Jhn 3:19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;


Jhn 3:20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;


Jhn 3:21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'



4/10/11 2:24 PM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john - it is amazing to me how people refuse to do historical research, or even textual study

rev

We all know that toelocku was first taught a tradition from his sect and then is going to the Bible to try to hammer the verses into a shape that makes them fit that tradition.  The Bible is as pliable as clay in the hands of an individual, especially in the absence of historical perspective and the Ecclesia.
4/11/11 9:28 AM
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reverend john
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toelocku - dyingbreed


if you want precise study material go to the heb/greek look up the word uses inthe bible then with the spirit use your brain and come to an accurate translation

and as for those other comments...

Jhn 3:19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;


Jhn 3:20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;


Jhn 3:21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'





Take this, and eat, it is my body

take this and drink, it is my blood

and when you do this, do it in remembrance of me


yeah, take the bible and read it yourself with no other influence. Btw, you use aramaic? Or the Greek copy of aramaic? Or a Greek translation of the Latin Translation of the Greek translation of the Aramaic?

rev
4/11/11 2:32 PM
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Grakman
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 rev, do you believe in the real presence in the Eucharist?

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