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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Short vs tall - grips


4/1/11 6:44 PM
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Theakston
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I am 5'8 and therefore fight many taller opponents - i weigh 200 lbs. As a former wrestler I am comfortable in close, but i really struggle when an opponent holds me far away. I want to engage but I can't close the distance. Any ideas/suggestions would be welcome.
4/2/11 8:12 AM
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Seong gyeong
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Posted this on another thread somewhere; maybe it can help you?

Dave Camarillo, "Judo: the Tall vs. the Short"

http://raskesport.ee/foorum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2681
4/2/11 7:42 PM
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Theakston
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Thanks, that was great. I really use tai otoshi a lot. I still struggle when they take a high grip on my collar or cross-grab an the lapel and simply keep me at arm's length. I can concentrate on breaking the grip but they just grab again. Often i wait until they attempt a throw and then counter with a back arching throw, but I would rather be more aggressive and make them play my game. Very frustrating.
4/2/11 8:23 PM
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judoblackbelt
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When fighting taller opponents a forward throw is usally best. Seionage or sleeve grip sode tsuri komi goshi. If you can develope a drop or morote seionage at 5'8" 200 lbs you will be a terror. At our recent local tournaments 2 months ago. One of our higher skilled guys 205 5'7" threw 3 guys 240, 260, 280 with drop seionage. He fought up to 100k+ since there were no 100K guys. They dropped like redwoods. His skill was better, I don't want to downplay that.
4/2/11 9:55 PM
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Seong gyeong
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Edited: 04/02/11 9:56 PM
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I usually fall into the "taller" end of the spectrum: 6'0, 178lbs. For what it's worth, I can tell you what the shorter, faster competitors tend to get me with:<br /><br />* Drop seionage<br />* Kouchi maki komi (see link)<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJpLabg6Xk<br /><br />And sometimes you can just fake a seoinage and then do kouchi maki komi....works well.

*Edited cuz I can't spell Japanese words....
4/2/11 10:22 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Can't say it better. Kouchi mak komi is also a great throw. The fake a forward seionage and then kouchi maki komi.
4/3/11 11:34 AM
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Theakston
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Drop seoinage has really become a favourite of mine but I worry that a misthrow or a mistake could allow the opponent to take my back (esp. in BJJ). I just fight in fear of that big uchi mata or deashi barai sweep when they hold me out at arm's length with a strong straight arm - I feel like a little brother getting owned. In Bjj i feel like just taking a big double on them but pride makes me want to stay up, grip fight, and beat them with judo. Sometimes ends up looking like a big stalling match, and i get so frustrated not being able to get past that strong, extended arm.
4/3/11 11:11 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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 learn to grip fight. you won't be able to do your throws until you break their grips off and get the grips you want. you particularly need to stop the lapel grip before they ever get it if you need to move in closer for tai-o
4/4/11 8:07 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Theakston- drop seionage is not recommended for BJJ. Morote is better because you can rotate your opponent better. But this needs to be your best throw. For a stiff arm we have talked many times on this forum what to do. #1 is with both hands one on top the other on the bottom(if they already have the grip on your collar)grab near the hand/wrist push down and away, pull across your body (x grip). Now sumi gaeshi is your best option. If you can catch the hand before the collar grip pull it across your body. They can't attack you. You first have know what throws you are able to do and have a strategy. For example I fight left foot forward and many righties stiff arm me. I do not have good forward moving throws. So I have techniques to break this stiff arm or take the over the shoulder grip and crush the stiff arm. So what if the BJJ match stays on the feet or how it looks.
4/4/11 7:37 PM
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Theakston
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With the over the shoulder do you get in and do the goergian pick up, or other similar wrestler/sambo/russian judo type throws? When theyreach is tsurikomi goshi a legit move? I like it, but the timing would have to be flawless.
4/5/11 7:29 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Theakston, I don't do pick ups, too old. I try and hook the lead leg in ouchi style for a uchimata attempt or try a fake hip throw and sweep the uke's right leg. I am moving to my sleeve grip side -right. Before they get the collar grip, when they reach, I grab with both hands (described above)my goal is to next get the collar grip with my left hand and then the sleeve grip with my right hand. what I am describing to you is when I am fighting uke with his right foot forward. And I am fighting with my left foot forward. In judo this is called opposite stances. With like stances. My left foot forward against their left foot forward I also try and catch uke's left arm trying to grab my collar. But my throws are different. You have to have the mindset in how you defend/attack with both stances. One thing I never change is I always lead with my left foot. This is where I feel balanced and strong. And then adjust whether uke is right foot forward or left foot forward.
4/5/11 10:23 AM
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Theakston
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Perfect - I am a left leg lead, and I need to limit my lifts and level change attacks as I am closing in on 40 and full of ouchies. not o-uchis!
4/5/11 10:23 AM
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Theakston
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Perfect - I am a left leg lead, and I need to limit my lifts and level change attacks as I am closing in on 40 and full of ouchies. not o-uchis!
4/5/11 4:45 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I am 60 and all my randori is with guys in their 40,50,60. Mat work I can go with anyone. My body can't take the hard throws anymore. We kinda go easy on eachother in randori. Rec judo.
4/5/11 4:46 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I am 60 and all my randori is with guys in their 40,50,60. Mat work I can go with anyone. My body can't take the hard throws anymore. We kinda go easy on eachother in randori. Rec judo.
4/5/11 4:46 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I am 60 and all my randori is with guys in their 40,50,60. Mat work I can go with anyone. My body can't take the hard throws anymore. We kinda go easy on eachother in randori. Rec judo.
4/5/11 4:46 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I am 60 and all my randori is with guys in their 40,50,60. Mat work I can go with anyone. My body can't take the hard throws anymore. We kinda go easy on eachother in randori. Rec judo.
4/6/11 12:17 AM
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Seong gyeong
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I'm 29, but my Korean age is 30. I like doing pick-ups, but I usually don't go for them, mainly because I suck at them. Sumi gaeshi is a nice gentle throw that I like to do a lot, even though I tend to telegraph it.
4/6/11 1:18 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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i love how so many people are telling you what throws to do, yet they have no idea what you are or are not good at. it is horrible advice and you need to ignore it.

if you are having issues with a gripping or distance situation then a throw cannot solve it. seeing how the issue is pre-throw, then a throw cannot be the solution, could it?

learn to grip fight and how to close the space in terms of Judo. that is the only possible way to solve the issue you are having.
4/6/11 12:07 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Theakston- Please provide us some feedback on what improves your judo based on your post and the various recommendation. And let us know if what "we" told you is "horrible advice".
4/7/11 8:04 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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JBB... you dont get it I guess...

sure, you can tell somebody to try this and thry that and it might make him throw somebody once or twice. big deal. it isnt fixing the issue and it will not, cannot possibly, lead to a deeper understanding of why the issues are being had in the first place.

let me try to solve systems of equations of a linear line by the Area of a triangle formula. ummmmmmmmm. doesnt work.

if you want to understand why there is space between you and an opponent, or how to deal with grips, the solution isnt the throw as you are still being outgripped. even if the person changes throws and is able to throw this one, or two, people he was having issues with, the original problem has not been solved and will eventually sneak right back up in another months or different situataion.

you dont give a person seafood and assume you taught him how to fish.

if the issue is space, gap, kumi-kata then you solve it by improving the use of THOSE elements. not by introducing a completely different set of variables.

in the end, regardless of if the OP "feels" as if what you said helps him, it doesnt help him in actuality, it just changes the situation to a small degree.
4/7/11 8:19 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I would like him to try the recommendations on this forum and be honest with us on what helps(if any) his situation. I don't disagree with you. Never said I did. I just gave him my perspective what would help solve his problem. My thoughts when I confronted with this. For example, when I said crush his stiff with the over the shoulder grip you are in effect closing the distance.
4/7/11 8:22 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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now... to address the OP directly... this is taking a risk and can become very muttled, but it should help understand the variables at play.

you are left-leg lead. thus, you should also be left-hand lead with your hand either gripping the lapel or higher collar for typical purposes. this is normal left sideded play in Judo.

as a "lefty" you need to understand that about 80% of the world is opposite of you. they are right handed, right foot forward. thus, you have numerical advantage because you should see right sided players far more than lefties and they should see lefties far less than righties. this is important to consider as this is what also leads lefty-lefty to be such an odd situation down the line and this also explains why a disporportionate number of lefties are in the finals of any given major tournament.

lefties need to do several things to "close the gap" when facing righties. first and foremost they need to understand that the direction of a given technique is now different than how it is practiced when uke is standing neutral. in randori or shiai, your uke's "neutral" is normally tilted in a manner that creates a 90-degree, right, corner between your two bodies. whereas in a same-sided situation the players are, to a more or less situation, standing in parallel with one another.

the 90-degree corner means that all throws now finish to a different place and all kuzushi and body torque must compensate. all foot placement must be different as well. failure to do so means a throw can easily under/over penetrate or that one's kuzushi can easily be poorly applied. if you want to experiment with this, have your uke stand right-sided while you take your left sided stance and practise your uuchikomi and nagekomi from there. you will quickly see that there are significant adjustments to be made on any given technique.

as for the hands, removing uke's right hand from his grip is usually a bad choice. you cannot keep his grip under your control as you need your left hand to be on the lapel or high collar as well. thus, it is best to find a way around, over, under, through, up, down, in, out than it is to try and take-away the grip. this does not mean all the time, as sometimes it is good, and necessary to remove the right-hand... but, in general, taking it away also takes away your options as well.

4/8/11 2:50 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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when you crush somebody's grip you MIGHT be closing the gap, but you might actually be doing the opposite as well... it depends on stances and uke's reaction.

when you "crush down" a grip, often uke's ass moves back and away from tori. thus, you didnt close the gap, you actually increased it! now, this can be a problem for some and might be a blessing for others. how it is viewed depends on several individual traits and skill levels. in the hands of somebody with incredible kuzushi and a very good uchimata, yokotomoenage or drop seio maybe it is a blessing. for somebody who like ouchi, kouchi, sasai, harai, even osoto this might be exaserbating the problem.

there are all situations none of us can answer for the OP.

when the teens I work with are dealing with issues caused by gap, uncontrolled space, poor movement or bad gripping I tend to look at the situation using backward design... meaning, the desired result has to be considered first. thus, if the kid throws osoto the potential answers are different (to a degree) than those for somebody who wishes to throw primarity with tiotoshi.

the goal of any given situation has to be to put your player into a state of comfort where his/her neuromuscular system can perform a task with near perfection. thus, the more the player is able to think about what must happen in order to make his favorite/best techniques have a decent chance then the better the odds of it becoming a repetitive behavior.

example: a kid loves osoto, but he is always dealing with people who stick their butts back and create the gap where osoto is almost impossible to pull off. the gripping isnt an issue for now as the kid is able to get his preferred grip. thus, the solution must be one that makes uke stand more upright, providing tori the opportunity to make his osoto effective.

this can be accomplished many, many ways. forcing uke to take penalties for passivity. seeing if uke will bring his hips forward to block a forward throw to establish a possible feint. creating movement patterns that draw uke's feet to move forward. and many others.

but, the problem is not one that i solve by telling the kid to change his throws or to just crush somebody down. instead i explain to the kid that he needs a given situation to make his technique work and i help him otganize some possibilities to make that situation happen.
4/8/11 2:51 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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when you crush somebody's grip you MIGHT be closing the gap, but you might actually be doing the opposite as well... it depends on stances and uke's reaction.

when you "crush down" a grip, often uke's ass moves back and away from tori. thus, you didnt close the gap, you actually increased it! now, this can be a problem for some and might be a blessing for others. how it is viewed depends on several individual traits and skill levels. in the hands of somebody with incredible kuzushi and a very good uchimata, yokotomoenage or drop seio maybe it is a blessing. for somebody who like ouchi, kouchi, sasai, harai, even osoto this might be exaserbating the problem.

there are all situations none of us can answer for the OP.

when the teens I work with are dealing with issues caused by gap, uncontrolled space, poor movement or bad gripping I tend to look at the situation using backward design... meaning, the desired result has to be considered first. thus, if the kid throws osoto the potential answers are different (to a degree) than those for somebody who wishes to throw primarity with tiotoshi.

the goal of any given situation has to be to put your player into a state of comfort where his/her neuromuscular system can perform a task with near perfection. thus, the more the player is able to think about what must happen in order to make his favorite/best techniques have a decent chance then the better the odds of it becoming a repetitive behavior.

example: a kid loves osoto, but he is always dealing with people who stick their butts back and create the gap where osoto is almost impossible to pull off. the gripping isnt an issue for now as the kid is able to get his preferred grip. thus, the solution must be one that makes uke stand more upright, providing tori the opportunity to make his osoto effective.

this can be accomplished many, many ways. forcing uke to take penalties for passivity. seeing if uke will bring his hips forward to block a forward throw to establish a possible feint. creating movement patterns that draw uke's feet to move forward. and many others.

but, the problem is not one that i solve by telling the kid to change his throws or to just crush somebody down. instead i explain to the kid that he needs a given situation to make his technique work and i help him otganize some possibilities to make that situation happen.

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