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HolyGround >> Jesus and War ?


5/1/11 3:58 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Rooster, I think it's unfair to say that those who are "anti-war" are ignoring Scripture. You can find endorsements in the OT for a lot of things that are unacceptable now, e.g. multiple wives, incest, stoning adulterers, etc.

Aren't you one who argues for a progressive revelation in Scripture? Jesus is the perfection of all that came before and when he said "Blessed are the meek", "Do not repay evil for evil", "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", and most importantly, "Love you enemies", that can be viewed as the "perfected" view of violence. It doesn't mean that they are ignoring Scripture.
5/1/11 11:07 PM
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the rooster
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zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

5/1/11 11:13 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn - Rooster, I think it's unfair to say that those who are "anti-war" are ignoring Scripture. You can find endorsements in the OT for a lot of things that are unacceptable now, e.g. multiple wives, incest, stoning adulterers, etc.

Aren't you one who argues for a progressive revelation in Scripture? Jesus is the perfection of all that came before and when he said "Blessed are the meek", "Do not repay evil for evil", "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", and most importantly, "Love you enemies", that can be viewed as the "perfected" view of violence. It doesn't mean that they are ignoring Scripture.


I think any Christian is "anti war". I'm anti war. I hate war. But that doesn't take away from the fact that God commanded and protected many warriors. He actually commanded Israel to conquer the promised land.

Soldiers were not directed to quit by John the Baptist, Jesus ministered to a centurion for his great faith, Cornelius was a special forces for Rome, and you cannot read Revelation and not see a coming final "war" of good vanquishing evil.

I hate war except where the alternative is worse. I would not want to live in a Nazi controlled world, or communist controlled world, or muslim controlled world. We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves and that means to protect the innocent.
5/2/11 2:39 AM
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Ridgeback
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the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

The best thing about your tradition and it is the one thing you are disobedient about.  
 
5/2/11 9:14 AM
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the rooster
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Ridgeback - 
the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

The best thing about your tradition and it is the one thing you are disobedient about.  
 


Ridgeback, you aren't reading my posts remember. Now don't lie...go back to ignoring them.

5/2/11 9:15 AM
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the rooster
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zealot, I think what's interesting is the reaction today with the seals killing of UBL. The US collectively, right and left is cheering and telling him to burn in hell.

The former president (Bush) was a nominal Christian and sought his death. Obama is a muslim ;-) and sought UBL's death.

Timely with this conversation.
5/2/11 12:08 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - zealot, I think what's interesting is the reaction today with the seals killing of UBL. The US collectively, right and left is cheering and telling him to burn in hell.

The former president (Bush) was a nominal Christian and sought his death. Obama is a muslim ;-) and sought UBL's death.

Timely with this conversation.


Yeah, something about crowds of people gathering and celebrating his death didn't sit right with me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not shedding any tears for Bin Ladin, but I just don't think that's the kind of thing that we should be joyous about.
5/2/11 12:19 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - 
inlikeflynn - Rooster, I think it's unfair to say that those who are "anti-war" are ignoring Scripture. You can find endorsements in the OT for a lot of things that are unacceptable now, e.g. multiple wives, incest, stoning adulterers, etc.

Aren't you one who argues for a progressive revelation in Scripture? Jesus is the perfection of all that came before and when he said "Blessed are the meek", "Do not repay evil for evil", "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", and most importantly, "Love you enemies", that can be viewed as the "perfected" view of violence. It doesn't mean that they are ignoring Scripture.


I think any Christian is "anti war". I'm anti war. I hate war. But that doesn't take away from the fact that God commanded and protected many warriors. He actually commanded Israel to conquer the promised land.

Soldiers were not directed to quit by John the Baptist, Jesus ministered to a centurion for his great faith, Cornelius was a special forces for Rome, and you cannot read Revelation and not see a coming final "war" of good vanquishing evil.

I hate war except where the alternative is worse. I would not want to live in a Nazi controlled world, or communist controlled world, or muslim controlled world. We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves and that means to protect the innocent.


Fair enough. The Nazis do present a difficult moral challenge to total pacifism.

One thing I will disagree with is your statement that "any Christian is anti-war". They should be, but the sad reality is that there was hardly a peep from evangelicals when the Bush admin was beating the drums for the invasion of Iraq. In fact, most fell in right behind him.
5/2/11 5:45 PM
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zealot66
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the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

No one is answering my question. Shooting a home invader isnt the same as hunting down and killing the enemy.  soldiers go on offensive missions and inflict death up and personal. Would jesus kill in a viscious manner
 
5/2/11 6:58 PM
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Grakman
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zealot66 - 
the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

No one is answering my question. Shooting a home invader isnt the same as hunting down and killing the enemy.  soldiers go on offensive missions and inflict death up and personal. Would jesus kill in a viscious manner
 

Do you believe Jesus will come again a second time, and if so, will their be any bloodletting per the book of Revelation?

Is Jesus God, and if so, was God wrong for ordering the deaths of the Canaanites and others in the Old Testament?
5/2/11 7:54 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Edited: 05/02/11 7:54 PM
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Grakman - 
zealot66 - 
the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

No one is answering my question. Shooting a home invader isnt the same as hunting down and killing the enemy.  soldiers go on offensive missions and inflict death up and personal. Would jesus kill in a viscious manner
 

Do you believe Jesus will come again a second time, and if so, will their be any bloodletting per the book of Revelation?

Is Jesus God, and if so, was God wrong for ordering the deaths of the Canaanites and others in the Old Testament?


Do you think it is morally acceptable to execute homosexuals, adulterers, and disobedient children in the present day?
5/2/11 8:00 PM
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Grakman
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That's not war, nor does it address Revelation. Phone Post
5/2/11 8:39 PM
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Ridgeback
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the rooster - 
Ridgeback - 
the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.

The best thing about your tradition and it is the one thing you are disobedient about.  
 


Ridgeback, you aren't reading my posts remember. Now don't lie...go back to ignoring them.


 I read that one that was two sentences.  It was almost too much, but I got through.
5/2/11 8:48 PM
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zealot66
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Grakman:   Do you believe Jesus will come again a second time, and if so, will their be any bloodletting per the book of Revelation? 

Is Jesus God, and if so, was God wrong for ordering the deaths of the Canaanites and others in the Old Testament? 

This isn't about eschatology. That's a whole nother discussion. As for the God of the Old Testament ordering the deaths of men women and children and 'taking wives', to kicking women out of the camp because of menstural blood, I have a problem with that God inspiring people to do that. The whole question is evasive of the topic of Jesus and War. 

No one here is going to come right out and say that you can be christlike and put a gun to somebodies head, splatter their brains and move on to more killing and be taken seriously. No one wants to toe the line on this. To be an effective soldier you have to kill. 
 
5/2/11 9:25 PM
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Grakman
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Troublesome indeed. An invading army comes through killing everyone in sight, women, children, the aged, the crippled... and all the able-bodied men surrender, praising God. Phone Post
5/2/11 9:49 PM
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RoidsGracie
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the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.


 How come your demonination and you came to different positions despite both believing that the Bible interpets itself and explains itself in a clear manner?
5/2/11 10:19 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Rooster is a Chiliastic and believes Jesus will rule the earth with an iron rod and secret police.
5/2/11 10:20 PM
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Ridgeback
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RoidsGracie - 
the rooster - 
zealot66 -  Yet, Rooster, I want the answer of how a christian combatant is to conduct himself in warefare. 


my denomination is pacifist. I'm not. I would say a Christian can and should defend his family and neighbors if their life is threatened.


 How come your demonination and you came to different positions despite both believing that the Bible interpets itself and explains itself in a clear manner?

 The word pacifist is nowhere to be found in the English Bible.  Now it is true that no English words whatsoever would be found in the original Hebrew and Greek autographs, but you know what I mean.  
5/3/11 10:23 PM
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the rooster
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you:
Yeah, something about crowds of people gathering and celebrating his death didn't sit right with me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not shedding any tears for Bin Ladin, but I just don't think that's the kind of thing that we should be joyous about.

me: people can be joyful for many things. vengence, "winning", justice, who knows. I think it's very natural. the guy masterminded horrific mayhem. 3,000 of our fellow citizens died. He knew it was an act of war and was willing to take the chance. Miriam led the children of Israel in a joyous song of celebration after egypt was conquered at the Red Sea.
5/3/11 10:28 PM
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the rooster
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you:
One thing I will disagree with is your statement that "any Christian is anti-war". They should be, but the sad reality is that there was hardly a peep from evangelicals when the Bush admin was beating the drums for the invasion of Iraq. In fact, most fell in right behind him.

me:
because evangelicals trusted Bush. They trusted the words of Bush more then the words of liberals. They trusted that Saddam Hussein was a threat. His lobbing bombs at Israel, gassing kurds, torturing his people, funding terrorist, and rah rahing and sabre rattling right after 9/11 was viewed by an administratioun without the luxury of 2nd guessing to take him as a serious threat. Evangelicals believed in his judgement.

Right or wrong, that is why there was hardly a peep.
5/3/11 10:32 PM
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the rooster
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you: Do you believe Jesus will come again a second time, and if so, will their be any bloodletting per the book of Revelation?

me: yes

Is Jesus God, and if so, was God wrong for ordering the deaths of the Canaanites and others in the Old Testament?

me: yes and no
5/3/11 10:35 PM
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the rooster
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you:
Do you think it is morally acceptable to execute homosexuals, adulterers, and disobedient children in the present day?

me: I believe it was morally acceptable for Israel when they were in their infancy, surrounded by pagan nations trying to seduce them into paganism or trying to destroy them in war. They lived a different life, one that was militaristic in order to survive, mandated by God for that time.

5/3/11 10:38 PM
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the rooster
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you:  How come your demonination and you came to different positions despite both believing that the Bible interpets itself and explains itself in a clear manner?

me: because our denomination has distinct teachings that are monolithic and universal (oneness, baptism in Jesus name, infilling of the Holy Spirit, etc).

They then have doctrinal beliefs that is required for minister to be licensed.

They they have areas of liberty and personal conviction.

5/3/11 10:41 PM
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the rooster
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Ridgeback -  Rooster is a Chiliastic and believes Jesus will rule the earth with an iron rod and secret police.


Ridge, you don't have to lie to have a robust exchange of ideas on here. If you want to know what I believe, I would again, encourage you to go to the book you don't really believe in. It's clear and I accept it:

"Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I [the Messiah], speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me. I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground." (Isaiah 63:1-6)

This parallels Jesus' return in Revelation, where there are two accounts of the winepress:
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. (Revelation 14:19,20)

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter" [Psalm 2:9]. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (Revelation 19:11-15)


I missed the whole "secret police" part but the bible is pretty clear. Course you know Isaiah and John were pretty militant right wing violent war lovers who believed in a violent Jesus eh?

READ THE BOOK RIDGE if you want to offer opinions on what it says.
5/3/11 10:43 PM
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the rooster
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you: The word pacifist is nowhere to be found in the English Bible.  Now it is true that no English words whatsoever would be found in the original Hebrew and Greek autographs, but you know what I mean.  

me: actually baptism in pretty much transliterated from the greek. So are other words. But we are comfortable that translations retain the essence of the word. However, words like Trinity don't exist in concept or as greek or hebrew words.

Oh Ezekiel was also a war mongering war lover.

Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: "Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind," declares the Sovereign LORD. (Ezekiel 39:17-20)

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." (Revelation 19:17,18)

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