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HolyGround >> Jesus and War ?


5/5/11 10:48 PM
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the rooster
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grak: What if Revelation wasn't an end time scenario but instead described the world at the time of John, and the number of the beast referred to Nero?

me: then I missed the whole new heaven and new earth, and new world of no more sins, tears, etc. Seems to me, more to be fulfilled :-)
5/5/11 10:51 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/10/11 8:13 AM
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5/5/11 11:54 PM
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Ridgeback
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I didn't see any verses quoted above.  You lost at The Bible Game (TM)!
5/7/11 10:07 AM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/10/11 8:14 AM
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5/7/11 11:45 AM
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Grakman
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Well that clears everything up for sure - thanks rooster! lol :-P Phone Post
5/7/11 12:54 PM
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the rooster
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Grakman - Well that clears everything up for sure - thanks rooster! lol :-P <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



ever welcome ;-)
5/7/11 4:07 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I think what we see here is that The Hammer is the master of The Bible Game (TM) and knows his way around The Word of God (TM) better than Pseudo-Grakius could ever hope to.
5/7/11 4:37 PM
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Grakman
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 Pseudo-Grakius - I like that. 
5/7/11 11:13 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/10/11 8:14 AM
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5/8/11 12:25 AM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman -  Pseudo-Grakius - I like that. 

 I thought you might.  
5/8/11 12:33 AM
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the rooster
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"thought"? C'mon, you are Mr. Ex Cathedra. You don't "think"...you *know*.

It's a gift.
5/9/11 4:27 PM
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zealot66
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 Rooster, if you werent interested in MY question then dont answer. I thought it is a very provoking discussion. What I believe or you think I do or dont believe does not matter, you have found a way to diverge into your own interpretation of the bible. I understand it fully and I believed you on the board would give me that answer as it fits what is interpreted by mainstream Christianity.

You simply slide around the question of the question of killing in warfare. You say, " hold the office of soldier" like its the staff officers or the clerks Im talking about. You gave the example of an invading army raping and pillaging and just  saying a prayer and walking away. None of us would do that. The soldiers that kick in doors and double tap a man in the chest and head that they dont know and have done no personal harm to, thats what Im talking about or creeping into compound and slicing the throat of a sentry because you dont want him to make any sound or killing the 14 year old boy who is carrying an AK. A woman who is aiding and abetting a Bomb Maker and being a watch for your foot patrol to walk through and dialing the number that ignites it. Launching rounds from a tank into a known enemies house and you found out that there were women and children in the house. Men who just blew up your buddy crawl out of their hiding hole and surrender. Winning a war is about killing the enemy. A door you just kicked in has a 10 year old boy pointing an AK at you. Do you waste him or reason with him like Christ would......pop, you just died.

The office of soldier is so vague. How do you reconcile these violent actions in a foreign land against people you dont know and havent affected your life in any way ? Would Jesus Christ do this ? 
5/9/11 5:25 PM
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Grakman
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 zealot, how would you feel about being a soldier or a rebel against an invading army? Would you fight back, flee, surrender, collaborate?
5/9/11 5:59 PM
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reverend john
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I haven't joined this discussion because you all know where I stand

Rev
5/9/11 5:59 PM
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reverend john
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I haven't joined this discussion because you all know where I stand

Rev
5/9/11 6:54 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - 
inlikeflynn - 
the rooster - 
inlikeflynn - 
the rooster - you:
One thing I will disagree with is your statement that "any Christian is anti-war". They should be, but the sad reality is that there was hardly a peep from evangelicals when the Bush admin was beating the drums for the invasion of Iraq. In fact, most fell in right behind him.

me:
because evangelicals trusted Bush. They trusted the words of Bush more then the words of liberals. They trusted that Saddam Hussein was a threat. His lobbing bombs at Israel, gassing kurds, torturing his people, funding terrorist, and rah rahing and sabre rattling right after 9/11 was viewed by an administratioun without the luxury of 2nd guessing to take him as a serious threat. Evangelicals believed in his judgement.

Right or wrong, that is why there was hardly a peep.


Maybe they should have used their brains a little more and trusted a little less. Iraq was not a "self-defense" war no matter how you try to spin it.


Maybe. Maybe it was about oil, or about a strategic base next to Iran, or maybe it was an opportunity to do "something" or maybe it was a distraction. I don't really know. I'm just telling you that I believe there was barely a peep because evangelicals trusted Bush more then they trust Obama.


Absolutely they trusted Bush more than Obama. Whether or not that is/was warranted is another discussion. However, I would argue that it had more to do with not having a proper view of war, i.e. they don't really hate war.



That's pretty speculative and subjective. How do you assess whether people "hate war" or not? You know monolithically that evangelicals trusted Bush more because ultimately they "don't hate war"?!?


No, I think they trusted Bush more than Obama because Bush told them he was "one of them". Now, if you really hate something, it should be incredibly difficult to get you to participate in it or give approval to it. Even if all the evidence they presented was reliable (and there were serious questions about it then), where was imminent threat, i.e. the justification for a self-defense war? Yet, not a peep. Hence, my conclusion.
5/9/11 7:51 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - you: What I'm saying is that it is problematic to say, for instance, "Well, God instituted capital punishment in the OT so it's OK to do now", because as I pointed out, God also called for executing homosexuals, adulterers, etc. and genocide at times.

me: it's not problematic. You have to take each premise on it's own merit.


Well, yeah. My point is you can't necessarily justify something based on the OT alone.


you: Those are things that very few Christians would advocate today. Why not? What has changed? Isn't it that God all along has been moving us towards a more perfect way? A way that was demonstrated by Jesus while he was here on earth?

me: Sure, except that Jesus also revealed a "warrior" side.

you: You quote Revelations where Jesus returns as a warrior to execute judgement as support for war, but doesn't it make more sense to look at his life and teachings while he was here?

me: no, what makes sense is to look at the totality of who Jesus Christ is and not minimize one aspect over another. He is perfect love and also will be our Judge. They are not mutually exclusive and we cannot white out aspects that don't appeal to us.

you: What do those say about violence? Isn't that a better parrallel for our current situation, i.e. what he did and said while he was living like us?

me: did He stop living with us when He revealed Himself to John in Revelations?


That warrior side is revealed in his role as judge. That is not our role. The closest parrallel we have to our own situation is how Jesus acted when He was here living AS one of us.
5/9/11 11:06 PM
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OneScoup
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Currently the Anglo Saxon Protestant culture is the most warlike on Earth. I've always found this a confusing but fascinating study of contradiction.
5/10/11 8:02 AM
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Grakman
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It's because we're also the richest and have the means to make war. There are many places in Africa with ongoing war and bloodshed, they just don't have the means to take it international. Can't overlook the fact that American military might is a power check on countries like North Korea and China, either. We'll see what happens when we can no longer afford to sustain the empire. Phone Post
5/10/11 8:13 AM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynnm, Jesus' role is two fold. He will return with 10 thousands up 10 thousands of His saints. The bible says the blood will rise to the horses bridle.

If it's all symbolic, then I'm not exactly sure what it means.

I'm not disregarding the compassionate, loving nature of Jesus. I'm not affirming the warlike tendencies of mankind. I abhor violence and so does the Lord. David, for all his greatness was a man of blood and couldn't build the temple.

My only advocation of "war" is to defend the weak and helpless. I do believe that prayer and the move of God's hand is the greatest weapon in our arsenal. I've had moments where I thought situations were going to get "ugly" but the Lord always provided a way out. Years ago I (stupidly) jumped out of my car to confront to guys who were tailgating and threatening me, flipping me off etc. I could have been shot or stabbed. What an idiot. But by the time they left we were hugging and I was witnessing to them about Jesus.

His love is greater then the sword. But I cannot dismiss times in the bible were war was advocated as just and permissible without ignoring whole swatches of scripture.

Maybe for the NT saints, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the bringing down of strongholds and we do not "wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities, against ruler of darkness in high places."

Maybe I'm to carnal but if someone is getting hurt by me or my families life is threatened, then they get one quick prayer and then they should be prepared to be stopped.
5/10/11 11:04 AM
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Grakman
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Is there a difference between war and self-defense? Phone Post
5/10/11 11:17 AM
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reverend john
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Not to me do not return evil for evil but good for evil

Rev
5/10/11 3:57 PM
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Ridgeback
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 As I noted earlier, Christians should, at a minimum, be the hardest people to drag into a war.  Politicians should be thinking (we will never get the Christians to sign on to this war) but the reality is the ranks of the US military are chock full of Christians and the average evangelical or fundamentalist Christian is about the easiest person to send to war.  It is all justified as self-defense or getting the bad guys, but there is almost no thought put into it.

Two things that might change people's tune?

1. Pastors actually dealing with the question of violence and how Christians should respond to it in the pulpit

2. Showing real war images, which would cure most people of their war lust.  Show a few incinerated babies and it seems like a lot less fun.  Right now, war is almost a video game for most Americans.  It helps with our boredom.
5/10/11 4:56 PM
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zealot66
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Grakman -  zealot, how would you feel about being a soldier or a rebel against an invading army? Would you fight back, flee, surrender, collaborate?

 Quite frankly, either works for me. I hold professional soldiers in high regard. I know Jesus Christ would never serve on Seal Team 6 ( there is no seal team 6, its DEVGRU) or Delta Force. He would have no war nor align himself politically with anyone. As for him fighting off an attacker......He came to earth to die so he did not resist. If someone was beating his mother, he would have used his power to render the man helpless, imo.

I have no illusions about the grandeur of war and those veterans suffer horrific problems after they sacrifice their soul on the battlefield. Even Audie Murphy was mentally ill after world war two. he probably personally killed close to 200 germans confirmed. He was a mess. His first wife said he used to sit in the dark with a .45 in his mouth with his finger playing with the trigger. But he was Americas ww2 hero and so forth. 

I have regular conversations with South Africans and Rhodesians who fought more than a decade in bloody ceaseless wars who were professionals and ployed their trade in future private wars in africa. They arent choir boys but I would trust a few to take my son on a fishing trip. They have little regret. Perhaps their conscience is seared or perhaps they lived in a world of them or me. Im sure you all have heard of the sheep, the wolves and the sheepdog theory. Well its true. It aint pretty but its true but I dont mix that with my religion and that makes me probably in error but at least Im honest about the facts.

Another contradiction you might ponder is this: There are only two people who have offered to give there lives for your freedom. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.

Bottom line is I dont have any pretenses to make my politics and ideas on war fit into my theology. Somehow I have to live in both worlds. To those who make a choice to live in one or the other I respect but dont be blind.
5/10/11 5:31 PM
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Grakman
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 Well said, zealot, well said.

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