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HolyGround >> Jesus and War ?


5/10/11 5:58 PM
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reverend john
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I disagree I would give my life for another and put my life on the line for another but never was willing to kill. As much as I respect what it takes to be a soldier and the sacrifice they are willing to make and do think being willing to die for your fellow man is Christlike. Killing fir your fellow man is bot

Rev
5/10/11 6:58 PM
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zealot66
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 Rev, I have more respect for you than you know. Im just being me and dealing with hard issues that everyone just bypasses. For me, In this temporal body, it aint right, it aint wrong, it just IS.
5/10/11 7:03 PM
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reverend john
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It is wrong

Just being me

rev
5/10/11 7:45 PM
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Ridgeback
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Lots of regular people would give their lives for a stranger and I would bet that a majority of soldiers are willing to give their lives for their buddies, but not a bunch of fat civilians back home.  Let's not romanticize the soldiering job.  I have huge respect for what they do and have a couple friends in the military, as well as having an interest in special operations like Zealot (Selous Scouts were the best ever) but the truth is soldiers throughout history have done everything under the sun from incredible acts of heroism and sacrifice to vile acts of rape and murder that a person in civilian life would get the electric chair for.  

My main issue is with the rulers of this country and the citizens.  If they weren't so war happy the soldiers would be reserved for real wars of defense of the homeland, not wars of expansion of the empire.  

With all that said, I will strongly encourage my son to be neither a cop nor a soldier.  It is one thing to defend your home and it is another to actually make a living that requires you to use violence against others.
5/10/11 7:49 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Oh and I also think non-violent resistance is both the bravest and the most Christ like way to respond to evil men.  After reading the Gulag Archipelago I am convinced that those people were the only ones who stopped evil in its tracks.  They refused to fight and they refused to submit.  The first Christians did this all the time.  They wouldn't use violence to defend themselves from the state and they would not assent to light a candle for a false god or call Caesar lord.  And I believe that a person can only pull this off if he is not a coward and if he is fearless in the face of death.
5/10/11 8:51 PM
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Grakman
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 The problem with non-violent resistance is the success of such resistance depends on the civility of those whom they are resisiting. Passive resistance did not work for the Jews in the Nazi era, and it wouldn't have worked for Ghandi had the Nazis been in charge instead of the British. I believe that the rev has the ultimate ideal in mind; but I find it difficult to believe that, taken to an extreme, that pacifism will work in every case  I am not saying at all that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are justified (bring the troops home yesterday!); I'm talking about wars of aggression where you have a genuinely evil force taking over another country - pillaging, raping, burning. Envision a modern day army of Huns. Where would they be stopped, if ever, were there no one to stand in their way.?

If it wasn't for Charlemagne Europe might have fallen to Islam by the sword  centuries ago. Would that have been a good thing? 
5/11/11 1:55 AM
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Ridgeback
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 The early Christians were tortured and slaughtered and then eventually the whole empire became Christian.  So they prospered and grew even while they were being killed.  What if the Jews had refused to cooperate with the Nazi's on any level?  I mean refusing to leave their homes, refusing to board trains, refusing to work in the camps, etc. etc.  The Nazi's would have had a huge mess on their hands.  Their success was due in large part to compliance for fear of getting tortured or shot or having a loved one tortured or shot.  But imagine if a large number had said "do your worst and God will judge."  I don't think you can commit to non-violent resistance until you can make your peace with torture or death (let alone things like losing a home or job).  But that really is what the early martyrs did and it was a very powerful witness.  Soldiers called to execute Christians were often converted and executed with the Christians moments later.  
5/11/11 9:54 AM
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reverend john
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Exactly non violent resistance worked everytime it was tried against hitler

Denmark and the other Nordic nations non violently resisted with better success

Rev
5/11/11 4:51 PM
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zealot66
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 man, my post got dumped.

Rev, the nordic countries were complicit with the nazi's and were not tyranized by them. Finland fought the russians prior to ww2 and then jumped in with them when they fought the russians. Non Violence is the thing Christ would do. Ridge did say correctly that to do so requires a decision to be content with death. Heb 2:15

and might free those who were slaves all their lives because they were terrified by death.

The only one here who is refusing to look at things in its basic form is Rooster. He knows Jesus Christ would not man a machine gun or hunt HVT's in the dead of night and have a beer of celebraton after a raid. His theology wont permit the most basic concept of what would jesus do ? 

John, at least you arent walking the middle of the road. I believe this impotence is the reason Christians have so little influence on the secular world. Miyagi do or Miyagi dont.

5/11/11 5:01 PM
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reverend john
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Not entirely true bro, they refused to give up the Jews. In Denmark many people wearing stars of david even though they weren't Jewish. We have actual letters from German commanders saying they didn't know what to do with them, they wouldn't fight, but wouldn't do as told. They couldnt just kill them.

When it comes to non violence, there is no middle of the road, Jesus was a non violent resister and so should we be.

rev
5/11/11 5:13 PM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 05/11/11 5:23 PM
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 I don't think being content to die is as hard as being content to let your spouse or children be tortured or killed, and I am certainly not at the level where I will encounter a break in of my own house with non-violent resistance.  I will have a shotgun or pistol in hand if I can get to them in time, but I think this is a failure to fully realize the Kingdom.

It is a hard teaching as they say but I believe the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven is non-violence.  In fact, you could say that in the Parousia it isn't a matter of Jesus coming to conquer his foes through force and violence, but rather refusing to give evil space or refusing to hide himself from those for whom his presence would be a terrible torment.  Since God is running everything you could say that the Judgment is the point where he stops conceding to the existence of evil for the sake of free creatures and let's reality be as reality is.

The picture of a millenial Christ ruling his earthly kingdom like a delayed Jewish Messiah is almost too much.  If he didn't persuade people in his own day to go along with him how would he do it then without force and violence.  And that is why I brought up the notion of secret police.  Jesus would have to run a police state to keep people in line if he came to rule in this fallen shadow world of altered reality.  
 
5/11/11 6:21 PM
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Grakman
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 How does all this tie in with mixed martial arts and fighting in a cage? Is it ok cause it's a sport or do you all think we should not sport fight either? (despite the fact we're on a website dedicated to cage fighting lol)
5/11/11 6:26 PM
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reverend john
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don't see mma as violence, in my opinion violence is that which harms the image of God in another. I think that only happens when someone tries to hurt another. Atleast for me I am never trying to hurt someone, we are competing, and in this competition we are trusting each other to tap, or respond appropriately. So Dan Hendersons overhand right on bisbing was not violence, but his flying forearm is

rev
5/12/11 4:55 PM
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zealot66
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 I dont think mma is Violence. To me Violence is rape, assault, harming someone weaker than yourself. It is also in they eye of the beholder. I think most dancing is sexual in nature. Some people see it as an athletic art form. I see turkeys strut in front of their mates and all kinds of stuff. 

However as a coach and former fighter, I do believe that a fighter needs to unleash the violent part of himself just as a trained professional soldier does. The key is being able to switch on and off. And do with neither pleasure in their pain, nor sorrow. You neutralize them and move on. dont make it personal. Emotion can be an enemy if it is invested in anything besides victory. One of my dictums is to punish your opponent. Dont go for just the sweet submission. Beat him up then submit him. Some green guys dont realize the violent acts that you must do that you were told your whole life not to do must be done, and you cant worry about the other person because they would do the same to you. HOWEVER, hurting someone beyond the established need or rules isnt cool. 
5/12/11 4:58 PM
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reverend john
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Same concept for my fighters everything you do should hurt. Make them want to be submitted.

Rev
5/12/11 5:05 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 05/12/11 5:07 PM
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I understand the competition aspect, but it certainly seems a fine line to walk, particularly when we say we can't defend our families because we believe in non-violence but it's ok to possibly injure or maim another person for fun and profit. 

As has been said on the forums here in our recent debates, can you see Jesus getting in a cage and beating on someone, or going and watching the fights? I don't know. I could see the spectacle being considered poor stewardship and being 'of the world,' as it glorifies violence and makes heroes of people who hurt other people the best.
5/12/11 5:21 PM
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reverend john
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Yeah I see that and to be honest I feel more and more embarrassed by the mma world. I no longer corner anyone except Gabe as he is my friend and needs me. I don't think I could keep fighting if I was as I couldn't do it with full conviction

Rev
5/12/11 6:54 PM
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zealot66
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 Here is a strange rant on God and killing Canaanites. Im still trying to decipher it.

http://truthtellers.org/alerts/canchristiansdefendotkilling.html


5/12/11 8:48 PM
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Grakman
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 I think all of you pacifists are having undue influence on me. ;-)
5/29/11 2:35 PM
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zealot66
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 Even heathen can see it
5/30/11 12:37 AM
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the rooster
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Sorry, my eyes burn when I look at Bill Mahar. I couldn't watch him. It's like garlic and vampires!
5/30/11 1:09 PM
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zealot66
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 I dont like him either. Hes a smarmy liberal that thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. I just happened to see this vid on another thread and thought it applicable to this discussion. At the end of the day, this topic is multilayered and the bible is not explicit one way or the other. I am provcoative with my threads because we need to examine christianity. 
5/30/11 2:18 PM
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reverend john
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Jesus is pretty explicit

Rev
5/30/11 8:52 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 05/30/11 8:54 PM
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double post.
5/30/11 8:54 PM
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yusul
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maher is too smug and self serving for my tastes.

i agree with everything ridge has said on this thread.

i would add, that as Christians while we have duties in this world, we can't be obsessed about what we gain here in exchange for losing what's in the next world. a material world view (killing people, protecting nation) that would diminish our spiritual orientation. Jesus' parables say as much.

our forefathers recognized this and were willing to sacrifice themselves in this physical world. in the end, Jesus in the hour healing the soldier's ear and telling Peter that a legion of angels could be summoned if Jesus had really desired, show that redemption, peace judgement and any violence are the decision of God.

If i was conscripted, I would serve, but only in the medical units.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? ...

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