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5/4/11 2:04 AM
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gbutts
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I just took an 8 week job at Millennia MMA (my kids train there) . I am tasked with helping their bjj players to win (not place) at the bjj worlds and grapplers quest. I was offered a job there a couple of years ago but I declined because my job did not let me fully commit to these competitors, now I that have a set schedule I am excited about passing my knowledge to these guys and women. Anyway, I came across Gerald Lafon Blog about teaching bjj and mma people judo (Most people think Gerland is a S.O.B., but I like him) . I think all Judo instructors should read.

I totally agree with him know your audience (students) judo for bjj players is different from judo for wrestlers and judo players, and judo for mma. There is his blog segment:


Since Judo is under constant threat from multiple directions, it’s important that every opportunity to showcase Judo be based on a better understanding of who our audience is, and be effected with professionalism.
It is said that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. When it comes to Judo, I believe that we seldom get a second chance to make a good first impression. A good first impression is one that screams out, grabs the audience by the throat, and compels it to want to do Judo. Well, two big shots in Judo had an opportunity recently to make a good impression on a bunch of jiu-jitsu practitioners. They failed miserably, and probably didn’t even realize it.


I believe that every time a potential member enters a Judo club and gets turned off by either the instruction, training methodology, mats, or Judo being practiced, he’ll probably walk away never to consider Judo again. One bad experience at Club X, and all Judo clubs- and the sport itself- suffer the consequences of a bad first impression. This is why I push so hard to make our club leaders understand that they must tailor their programs to the 21st century if they want to attract a good share of the grappling world. This means better instruction, better methodology, better mats, and better Judo. The sad truth is that there are many jujitsu willing to do Judo, but they are turned off by the kindergarten Judo and lousy methodology being offered at our average club.

A Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) club held a day-long clinic to raise funds for the disaster relief in Japan. Several good jiu-jitsu instructors were invited along with four Judo coaches: two in-house coaches and two outside guest instructors.

The guest instructors got the ball rolling for Judo. Actually, very little Judo was taught because they preened and spent too much time bragging about them. One twisted facts to make himself appear to be an accomplished Judo player, which he is not. But I digress.

So back to the Judo that was taught. Remember, the audience is a jiu-jitsu crowd. What Judo skills do you think would be appropriate to show jiu-jitsu if you were trying to showcase the power and effectiveness of Judo? You wouldn’t think of showing any ne waza skills, right? Well, you’d be wrong because kesa gatame was one the techniques shown. This was followed by the classical “pull down, pull up” set up for a forward throw. Why? I don’t know. Lastly, the group was shown a hip throw (from the knees) transition to kesa gatame, which would have been OK as a baby step before standing up and doing a whole bunch of stuff from there. Unfortunately, jiu-jitsu guys hate having to turn their back to throw, so perhaps for this clinic a rear throw might have been more appropriate. The real problem was teaching kesa gatame to ne waza specialists. Hello!

Shortly into the one-hour session, eyes started to roll and looks of despair appeared on faces. Some of the jiu-jitsu who studied under the in-house coaches diplomatically turned to them and muttered under their breath, “You guys are going to teach Judo, right?” For the jiu-jitsu who didn’t know what real Judo was, the end of the session couldn’t come fast enough. What a waste of valuable training time.

The clinic was so embarrassing to one of the in-house coaches that he wanted to walk out of the room. Guilty by association! Stoically, both he and his partner stayed and suffered the sloppy, meaningless Judo that was being presented. Both realized that the jiu-jitsu who hadn’t had the opportunity to see real Judo would go away with nothing good to say about the sport: a classical case of a missed opportunity to make a good first impression. Hopefully, they’ll keep their mouths shut, and not tell anyone else that Judo sucks. Fat chance, right?

My personal philosophy is that from every negative experience we can generate a positive one if we care enough to learn from it and change. With that in mind, these are the lessons we need to take from the event in question, if we desire to showcase Judo in its best light.

You must know who your audience is, and understand what it does. Jiu-jitsu want to learn Judo to make them better at jiu-jitsu. If you’re not familiar with Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sit in on BJJ practices. Teach to Judo’s strength, not BJJ’s. You must understand the BJJ game to show how Judo can help them become better jiu-jitsu. Do your homework.

One of the most important principles of teaching is the principle of activity, which recommends that 80% of a class be devoted to doing the activity. Few participants want to hear you spout about your past- real or imagined- or watch you show off to make yourself feel good and important. They want to learn the activity. The only way for that to happen is for you to shut up and let them practice.

Our typical model of teaching Judo is for the birds. I must admit that most BJJ teachers are much better at teaching their art than Judo coaches are at teaching theirs. For some reason, they have flourished while we sit dead in the water, unfazed at how little we know about teaching. I encourage you to visit BJJ clubs and analyze their methods of instruction. You’ll see the same elements of instruction that I’ve spoken about on many occasions.

Have pride in the way you look in your gi, and how you perform Judo. We suffer from far too many overweight, out-of-shape coaches who are not very good judo players or athletes now. In fact, many were never good judo players or athletes to start with. We can thank “service to Judo” promotions for that last trait.

As our Judo community shies further and further away from competition, and our inventory of Judo techniques is further emasculated, real Judo seems to be disappearing from our curricula. While the rest of the grappling world revolves around highly combative, functional, and practical skills, we are left with just a shadow of what Judo used to be. Unlike Judo, the other grappling arts have no kata, no limiting go kyo no waza, and no “demonstration” or “theoretical” techniques. They only have practical skills for combat. We too must get back to teaching practical Judo skills
5/4/11 2:27 AM
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gbutts
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Tommorrow is my first official day teaching at Millenia (Crystal teaches a kid judo class there and I have fill in for her a couple times); Over the next 8 weeks, I plan on teaching them two backwards throws and one front throw, a lot of gripping techniques, and throwing to matwork transitions. Again, know your audience and their goals, promote judo the proper way. Get on the mat and roll with bjj people, be willing to learn and adpt your game and teaching to make them and yourself better. LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR.
5/4/11 7:53 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Gary, Having trained in BJJ for 8 years, blue belt from Royce Gracie, 4 stripes from Caique and numerous BJJ tournaments I understand completely the above discussion. Local BJJ clubs are contracting the best judo players to teach judo at their clubs thus expanding their services to include judo. Ex - Valco BJJ in Chicago has added judo taught by RJ Cohen. Locally Ted Tripp teaches at some of the local BJJ clubs. Ted has excellent "classical" judo. There is this gray area on what to teach BJJ players "judo" to help in their BJJ competitions. When I watch video of the top BJJ BB they pull guard, severe bent over/walk like a duck posture or one guy gets a takedown and the remaining 98% of the fight is on the ground. My thoughts are I don't want to be involved in teaching judo to BJJ players for the sake of BJJ. I just refused yesterday a local invite. I will get involved in teaching BJJ players judo for the sake of judo.
5/4/11 8:08 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Wow, long time since I've read a Gerald Lafon scathing commentary. Remember him from the Judo-L list, good times.

I have to agree with much of what Gerald says, with the exception of the line "As our Judo community shies further and further away from competition, and our inventory of Judo techniques is further emasculated, real Judo seems to be disappearing from our curricula."

Specifically, I would say that on a world level, the Judo community is going more and more towards competition. However, instead of the "open" competition we see in other arts, the judo world has decided to close itself off and further and further try to separate itself by banning techniques that certain high up muckety-mucks have deemed to be "pure Judo." This, more than anything else, has led to the thinning out and emasculation effects Gerald speaks about.

That minor point aside, I do agree with Gerald here. Especially with the growth of "TMA style senseis" in Judo. By that, I mean men who go about and can wax philosophically about this and that, but whose belts are bigger than their chests, and whose cardio ability is shorter than their hair.

Now, does this mean that only those who can still "bring it" can teach Judo? Hardly. However, it does mean that at some level, a teacher should still be willing to train hard, and at least be able to do something.

My biggest respect I have for a martial arts teacher belongs not to my Judo coaches I've worked with, who have ranged from a 4th dan to a 6th dan. Instead, it belongs to Greg Jackson. Not because of Greg's current accomplishments, I last trained with Greg in 2004. Instead, because when I was there, Greg would still be working and rolling with his fighters, even going to the point of doing occasional sparring rounds with Keith Jardine or Diego Sanchez. Not banging, but still in good shape, and never too proud to get his butt handed to him by his pros or anyone. He was also humble enough to learn from anyone who came through his door, so that he was as much a student as he was a coach and teacher.

If Judo had more coaches like Greg, who were willing to learn, checked their egos, and still could at least semi "walk the walk," it wouldn't be the dying sport it is today in the US.
5/4/11 8:16 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judoblackbelt - Gary, Having trained in BJJ for 8 years, blue belt from Royce Gracie, 4 stripes from Caique and numerous BJJ tournaments I understand completely the above discussion. Local BJJ clubs are contracting the best judo players to teach judo at their clubs thus expanding their services to include judo. Ex - Valco BJJ in Chicago has added judo taught by RJ Cohen. Locally Ted Tripp teaches at some of the local BJJ clubs. Ted has excellent "classical" judo. There is this gray area on what to teach BJJ players "judo" to help in their BJJ competitions. When I watch video of the top BJJ BB they pull guard, severe bent over/walk like a duck posture or one guy gets a takedown and the remaining 98% of the fight is on the ground. My thoughts are I don't want to be involved in teaching judo to BJJ players for the sake of BJJ. I just refused yesterday a local invite. I will get involved in teaching BJJ players judo for the sake of judo.


jbb, I have to say, I think your approach is a hurtful one to Judo. The inability to "lower" ourselves to help other arts just makes us more isolated, more misunderstood, and less capable, as we can learn from them as much as they can learn from us.

For note, the stances you see in BJJ can all be very strongly attacked by "Judo", and in fact with the lack of gripping rules, can be attacked more easily than they could in Judo competition. For example, the severely bent over postures that you comment on are all easily attacked. I personally like to use ko soto gari, a modified ura nage, and definitely tani otoshi along with most of the yoko sutemi waza. Even better, since BJJ players would rather fall to their backs than to their fronts, Judo players can easily transition to a full pin if their flow is good enough.
5/4/11 11:20 AM
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LeroyJ
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I have to agree with the OP. I've essentially retired from Judo after 20+ years. It started out as a knee rehab thing, but the leg rule changes hit & I couldn't stomach the combination of local squabbling politics & drastic rule changes that step the art farther from the practical, use what works philosophy that I loved.

BJJ has tapped into a deeply seated wrestling culture in the USA, and parlayed that into a legitimate MA, business, and career for lifetime grapplers. Judo should look in the mirror, get practical about it's strengths and start doing some friggin quality control on the way we teach the sport.
5/4/11 11:30 AM
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LeroyJ
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Oh, and btw, we need to do a better job of protecting and training our elite athletes for life post-judo. Right now, they get dragged into the burnout world of political BS during, and especially at the end of their careers due to their success. I know it's a double edged sword, but credibility should bring some real benefit, not a life sentence of getting dragged into political squabbling, and the guilt trip (giving back to the sport) of being the only hope to rebuild a tarnished sport of the past.

There's not a ton of Jimmy Pedro/Morris types who are willing to sacrifice their jobs as an accountant, fireman or engineer for a career in Judo. Judo is a huge rock to push up a hill. It will take a whole new outlook to change the sport(in USA.) I think that starts with tapping into the BJJ/Wrestling culture, changing & improving our curriculum, training our trainers, and getting a bit more modern in the way we go to market.
5/4/11 12:34 PM
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BlackBeltNation
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I love Mr.Lafon's constant push for professional, well trained leaders who are constantly learning about the art of skill & character development.
5/4/11 2:14 PM
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judoblackbelt
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CS,let me get this straight. I am hurtful to judo because I won't train bjj in judo standup/transition teckniques for the purpose of improving their BJJ? But I will do this for the purpose of improving their judo training and competition. My focus is the development of judokas not BJJ players. And maybe I am somewhat "pissed" I have trained and worked with BJJ players who are taking judo with the goal of BJJ and not judo. They want to get their BB and not contribute to the sport in any way, shape or form. Their love is BJJ and the gods(Saulo, Gracie's, Machados, etc) along with the tatoes/nascar gis and judo is just a way to improve their BJJ game and add to their belt collection.
5/4/11 3:21 PM
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gbutts
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judoblackbelt - Gary, Having trained in BJJ for 8 years, blue belt from Royce Gracie, 4 stripes from Caique and numerous BJJ tournaments I understand completely the above discussion. Local BJJ clubs are contracting the best judo players to teach judo at their clubs thus expanding their services to include judo. Ex - Valco BJJ in Chicago has added judo taught by RJ Cohen. Locally Ted Tripp teaches at some of the local BJJ clubs. Ted has excellent "classical" judo. There is this gray area on what to teach BJJ players "judo" to help in their BJJ competitions. When I watch video of the top BJJ BB they pull guard, severe bent over/walk like a duck posture or one guy gets a takedown and the remaining 98% of the fight is on the ground. My thoughts are I don't want to be involved in teaching judo to BJJ players for the sake of BJJ. I just refused yesterday a local invite. I will get involved in teaching BJJ players judo for the sake of judo.


Understand I how you feel and I have train a lot bjj players in judo. These guys compete in both judo and bjj. I think you should look at it another way; what if a judo school want to bring in bjj bb to help improve its students matwork for judo competition and the bjj bb said no how is this going to help bjj.

I think by teaching judo to bjj players for competition it will help judo grow. Everytime we go to a bjj tournament and people see judo being used effectively it turns more people on to judo (more people wanting to learn judo). The more bjj players learning judo the greater the spread of judo. One of these bjj players or their kids might become next world or Olympic champ. We have to tap into the bjj and wrestling pool or judo will die in the US (especially with these rules driving people away). Would you tell the MMA person that you will not teach them because it does not promote judo? Of course not. I agree that certain people I would not teach because their motive for learning to get another belt, but out here they are few.

There are some bjj players that are judo bb who are great examples and proponents for judo (carmillo's, Paulo Augusto , Ceber, etc...)
5/4/11 4:28 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Wow. Gary is once again asking the tough questions with complex, multi-layered answers. ;)

I do think American judo needs to grow with the times and that *any* opportunity to show ourselves to our martial brothers, especially bjj and other combat sports, is a great thing and one that shouldn't be squandered. But at the same time, it's a long road to travel when much of judo's leadership in this country is aged(no disrespect intended) and us consistently losing the youth to wrestling, bjj, and mma. Meaning, aside from a handful of olympians and high level competitors/coaches that have branched out while still being advocates for judo(the Camarillos come to mind), where(and who) are the current generation to help spread judo and grease the tracks so to speak between sports(ie: getting wrestling teams involved in judo off seasons and reciprocal clinics, appealing to public/private school systems to make judo a recognized scholastic sport, etc, etc)for future generations? Moreover, how do you keep judo what it is in terms of community/grassroots organization and availability(ie: affordable, non-profit based programs) and still compete with wrestling, bjj, and even mma that are able to attract/retain high level (professional) instruction/facilities by way of profit-driven business models and ingrained, single organization systems(USA Wrestling as the sanctioning body for scholastic, college, international and veteran's wrestling)?

In my opinion, you can't. Sure, good coaching reaching out to bjj gyms and wrestling clubs to promote crosstraining is a good and noble thing. But it's really a short term, futile goal until we figure out a way to a) unify judo under 1 flag and b) get money in the hands of gyms, coaches, and athletes so they can function like professionals(no more ymca level coaching out of the goodness of people's hearts as the *standard* example for American judo)

Lastly, I tend to take personal offense at the notion that judo needs to lose more of its identity than it already has(becoming a sport as opposed to a martial art) in order to gain a larger audience. For example, the idea that we should (for the most part) do away with things like kata, self-defense, and judo theory in favor 'practical' judo. Yes, the antiquated 'system' of American judo needs an overhaul in terms of clubs balancing modern judo(the latest trends) with the classical style, but FUUUUUUUU to whomever thinks kata, self-defense, and traditions that make judo what it is should be swept under the rug anymore than they already are. I mean, what's next, getting rid of judo's maxims and just focusing on coaching the physical techniques like judo is just another style of (jacketed) wrestling? No thanks!



/rant.
5/4/11 7:28 PM
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LeroyJ
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I agree with you that Judo shouldn't wander from it's core values, but there is so much ego involved in the senior leadership, that it's tough to attract young, energetic blood. If the sport isn't growing, it's dying.

Core values are something that set Judo apart from BJJ, and over time may lead to athletes & practitioners sticking around longer. That, and it offers a more lifetime sustainable philosophy and community. Everybody will eventually get tired forking out $200/month for BJJ, and many will look for the grappling outlet in the form of Judo a couple days per week.

Our teaching curriculum is flawed, non-standardized, and open to wide variances in interpretation, quality and instructor skill. In truth, there are many black belts who shouldn't be teaching due to lack of skill or knowledge, but given enough mat time, they are allowed to put on the black belt and start teaching classes.

/rant
5/4/11 8:27 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judoblackbelt - CS,let me get this straight. I am hurtful to judo because I won't train bjj in judo standup/transition teckniques for the purpose of improving their BJJ? But I will do this for the purpose of improving their judo training and competition. My focus is the development of judokas not BJJ players. And maybe I am somewhat "pissed" I have trained and worked with BJJ players who are taking judo with the goal of BJJ and not judo. They want to get their BB and not contribute to the sport in any way, shape or form. Their love is BJJ and the gods(Saulo, Gracie's, Machados, etc) along with the tatoes/nascar gis and judo is just a way to improve their BJJ game and add to their belt collection.



In a simple answer, yes, you are jbb. Who honestly cares what their main art is? If they improve their throwing ability, then we are improving "judo." Also, who cares if their gis are solid colored, or look like Times Square?

What would have happened to Kano if the various Japanese JuJutsu ryus he basically plundered for the best of their techniques had refused to work with him, since he was obviously only interested in improving his style, and not theirs? The entity we call Kodokan Judo would be even more hollow than it is now.

Additionally, the fact is that there is nothing "unique" to judo. Whether we call the technique o soto gari, outside leg sweep, or "rearward trip" as sambo does, the technique is the same, and various arts have developed it. To arrogantly lay claim that someone must join "us" to be able to improve their ability in this technique is in the end hurtful to judo.

As Bruce Lee said, in the beginning, a punch is just a punch. Later, a punch becomes more than a punch. Still later, in the end, a punch is just a punch.

5/4/11 9:09 PM
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judoblackbelt
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CS- This will be my last comment. I am not going to debate on this issue. There is no money in judo. All of us volunteer our time,money for the sake of promoting judo, donations to the developement and scholarship funds. Bjjers have the opportunity to join our clubs and learn judo. They are welcomed and many times I have tried to recruit them. But somehow they feel they are not being loyal to their BJJ club if they x train in judo. They like it when you go there but are very hesitant to learn judo for the sake of learning judo at a judo club. Those that do come to judo (I can count this on a few fingers)are primarily there to get a BB and improve their BJJ game. I think world class judo has a big impact on BJJ as they can see what world class judo is. And some of the top BJJ guys have BB in judo.
5/4/11 9:38 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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jbb, I'm not worried about debate, but I would like to bring up a point. Perhaps the reason that there is "no money" in judo is because, quite frankly, the average level of judo instruction in the USA sucks?

Additionally, I can see it from the perspective of a BJJ player, having been a guy who has trained with them, as well as without a gi with Greg Jackson. To go from the very open worlds of nogi and BJJ to judo is very frustrating. In nogi and BJJ, while the scoring rules can be up for debate, almost all other rules are only there for safety of the competitor. To go from that to judo with the numerous gripping rules, timing rules, banned techniques for no reason other than the IJF deems them "bad", etc, etc ad nauseaum would make many people not want to try it out.

True story from my time here in Japan, and what would, in America, turn someone off to Judo. There is an old judge here who just doesn't like my style. I was taking part in a team competition, where teams are allowed to have up to 5 players each. Think of it like a best of 5 series. If a team has more competitors than the other, the team with more competitors gets the wins for those extra players automatically.

Well, I was on my team, and the other team elected not to send a player against me. So, the process is, bow on, go to the line, bow, step forward, ref gives you the win, step back, bow, go off the mat.

This asshole judge seriously made me step forward and back 7 times because I didn't step forward with my left foot first. I had no fucking clue what this asshole wanted until someone told me in broken English "left foot first!"

Now, can anyone tell me how the blue fuck this helps judo? A bunch of arrogant stuck in the mud assholes who refuse to allow new innovations and will promptly ban or discourage anyone who uses anything that wasn't in use in the "good old days" of 1964 or before?

Yeah, BJJ has its flaws. Especially in America, the BJJ players I have met have tended to be a bit arrogant, and the lower ranked ones can be a bit cultish with their adherence to their clubs.

But, some of their ideas make sense. For example, why have people training techniques that are ineffective? Why allow players to drop and turtle with no penalty, even though in real life that would be a sure fire way to get kick-fucked? At least with a guard pull you can still somewhat use your arms and legs to defend yourself.

A lot of the problems people in USA judo have with BJJ is because BJJ asks some hard questions that American judoka can't answer. And when asked to "walk the walk" instead of just talking and spouting about "yada yada Olympic sport yada yada second most popular sport in the world yada yada," most US Judoka cannot do it.
5/4/11 10:49 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Chocolate Shatner - jbb, I'm not worried about debate, but I would like to bring up a point. Perhaps the reason that there is "no money" in judo is because, quite frankly, the average level of judo instruction in the USA sucks?

Yes and no. It's kind of circular reasoning. Community service aside(though it's hard to separate it as being causative), the reason the standard of instruction (across the board) is lower is because there's no money, and the reason there's no money is because there's few outlets for high level/professional, business-oriented instruction
Chocolate Shatner - Additionally, I can see it from the perspective of a BJJ player, having been a guy who has trained with them, as well as without a gi with Greg Jackson. To go from the very open worlds of nogi and BJJ to judo is very frustrating. In nogi and BJJ, while the scoring rules can be up for debate, almost all other rules are only there for safety of the competitor. To go from that to judo with the numerous gripping rules, timing rules, banned techniques for no reason other than the IJF deems them "bad", etc, etc ad nauseaum would make many people not want to try it out.

Your mileage obviously varies, but "open"(minded) is not a term I would use to describe the state of bjj re: other arts, especially now that sport and IBJJF are starting to dominate the bjj world. I won't get into a debate about bias and politics in both training and competition, because it's subjective and leads nowhere, but I will say that I have been equally as frustrated with attitudes I find counterproductive and plain stupid in judo AND bjj.
Chocolate Shatner - True story from my time here in Japan, and what would, in America, turn someone off to Judo. There is an old judge here who just doesn't like my style. I was taking part in a team competition, where teams are allowed to have up to 5 players each. Think of it like a best of 5 series. If a team has more competitors than the other, the team with more competitors gets the wins for those extra players automatically.

Well, I was on my team, and the other team elected not to send a player against me. So, the process is, bow on, go to the line, bow, step forward, ref gives you the win, step back, bow, go off the mat.

This asshole judge seriously made me step forward and back 7 times because I didn't step forward with my left foot first. I had no fucking clue what this asshole wanted until someone told me in broken English "left foot first!"

Now, can anyone tell me how the blue fuck this helps judo?

Ego and pride contribute to douchey behavior, but I think you're missing the point that judo is a martial art(as opposed to being *just* a sport), therefore it retains certain cultural traditions specific to its country of origin. And the concept of rei(s), is one such tradition. So, honestly, what might be construed as douchey behavior is also just as likely to have been judo upholding its traditions(and maxims relating to respect/mutual welfare & benefit) by insisting you adhere to their *correct* practice/implementation. It's kind of like the salute in fencing and perhaps even the ram muay in muay thai. I know that in fencing, the competitors *must* salute one another before and after a bout, and if they don't they can(and will) be disqualified. And I've yet to see a full muay thai rules bout where the fighters didn't adhere to the practice of wai kru/ram muay(or even the ritual of sealing off the ring from evil spirits). So, why would you even need to ask why correctly obeserving judo's practices isn't helpful? Of course it is, because the practice not only helps to preserve judo's traditions and cultural heritage/identity, it also gives people an opportunity to put judo maxims into action by way of respect and selfless service, etc.
Chocolate Shatner - A bunch of arrogant stuck in the mud assholes who refuse to allow new innovations and will promptly ban or discourage anyone who uses anything that wasn't in use in the "good old days" of 1964 or before?

You're clearly showing your bias with this statement. Innovation is the name of the game in contest judo, at least at the international level. How much of judo in Europe and Russia in particular has been influenced by wrestling and sambo? A lot. And it's constantly evolving with and without politic antics by the IJF. Yet the thing to remember, imo, is that one of the main reasons innovations don't trickle down to the club level goes back to the begin of my post re: circular reasoning. There is simply not the organizational or financial 'system' in place to remain concurrent with the latest trends. The reason it happens in wrestling and bjj is because of the financial incentive and organizational system that's in place. Meaning, in wrestling you've got America's best coaches doing clinics, hosting yearly camps, hosting/sending teams internationally as a means of staying current AND making sure that knowledge trickles its way down to the club level. And in bjj it's no different, as the $150-$300/month prices most schools are pulling in, the money is there to bring current world-class competitors in for clinics, which in turn also gives birth to the instructional video market, as competitors, instructors, and students alike ALL benefit from the preservation and distribution of that knowledge. Yet aside from the few like Mike Swain who've cashed in a bit over the years, judo is almost devoid of any affiliation with that market. So, again, the result is that clubs don't stay current and American judo remains static re: growth.

Chocolate Shatner - Yeah, BJJ has its flaws. Especially in America, the BJJ players I have met have tended to be a bit arrogant, and the lower ranked ones can be a bit cultish with their adherence to their clubs.

But, some of their ideas make sense. For example, why have people training techniques that are ineffective? Why allow players to drop and turtle with no penalty, even though in real life that would be a sure fire way to get kick-fucked? At least with a guard pull you can still somewhat use your arms and legs to defend yourself.

A lot of the problems people in USA judo have with BJJ is because BJJ asks some hard questions that American judoka can't answer. And when asked to "walk the walk" instead of just talking and spouting about "yada yada Olympic sport yada yada second most popular sport in the world yada yada," most US Judoka cannot do it.

This really makes no sense whatsoever. What questions is bjj asking of judo? What's this "walk the walk" talk? Why single out judo for turtling(which we've actually been seeing in bjj/mma for years now) and give bjj a pass for buttflopping, its malevolence towards leglocks, and physically rough training/competition? The existance of and attitude towards contest-specific habits is not something you can pin on any one person or entity. They're often political in nature(like the 'reaping' bullshit in IBJJF contests) and often not much can be done about it on a local or even national level, so most people usually try to maintain a good attitude and work within the system rather than just bitch about things randomly to deaf ears.
5/5/11 12:18 AM
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gbutts
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well, I taught my first class at millenia mma and I started off with 10 rounds of 3 minutes matwork. Not because I want to let them know that my ground was good but because that is how I (old man)warm-up. YES THEY WERE SHOCKED THAT A ACTUALLY KNEW LEG LOCKS AND KNEE BARS. I spent 20 minutes on gripping and 10 minutes on gripping to take the back. 10 minutes on single and double leg defense (chin ripping *see it on youtube*)and 20 minutes on otso for a wrestling stance and judo stance. Bettis (the owner of millenia) join the class and show that he was eager to learn. 10 minutes on ouchi, they were so impress that they ask me to extend the class to 2 hours.

These guys were humble and really want to learn. Maybe they were that way because they have seen my daughters and my other students effectively use judo in bjj, but they were willing to learn.
5/5/11 12:37 AM
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judom
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Its always interesting / saddening for me to read the trouble judo has in the USA and the lack of popularity. Too bad.

In Europe its the opposite problem -- there are too many people training Judo. My friend has a gym in Eastern Europe and he has currently 150+ kids doing judo and 120+ adults. There are also BJJ clubs in the area, but they are not popular at all for some reason --- despite of the marketing. This is pretty much the opposite situation from the USA.

But I think in general, people in EE, especially parents, tend to look for substance and not marketing, and its always critical to find the best Olympic coaches in clubs that have traditions.

So, there Judo is so popular, even wrestling coaches are upset. While in the USA somehow, its not so popular.
5/5/11 1:24 AM
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gbutts
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I post the same thread on the bjj forum most of the post were humble and respectful but this is the tpye of ass I would not teach:

I recently started Judo and agree 100% with Judo not adapting to BJJ.

When I started Judo I explained very politely to the Sansei that I was a black belt in BJJ and yet they still wanted me to wear a white belt on my first day. Now, I'm not sure if it was their ignorance of BJJ or if they were trying to subtly dis me. Because, I am as humble as they come but there is NO WAY I will stand there with a White Belt on, looking like an idiot. I told the guy, I'll leave before I do that.

So after some hemming & hawing the Sansei comes over and ties a Yellow Belt on me. I wasn't really sure what level a Yellow Belt was, but at least it wasn't a White Belt. LOL!

I had to sit out the throws, because of my back acting up, but when we did the ground grappling (called "Naywasa" in Judo) I was wrecking EVERYONE. Then they start with the "No Leg Locks", "No Wrist Locks"... No this, no that, blah, blah blah.

--They weren't willing to adapt to me AT ALL and instead stayed in their little "comfort zone", just as the article pointed out.

Sad really.
5/5/11 2:07 AM
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judom
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adapting judo to bjj....hmmmmm.
5/5/11 7:18 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Gary - I read the post on the BJJ forum and thought "you sat out the throwing"(that is why you are going) but wrecked EVERYONE one the ground. My first thought is why are you going to judo to beat everyone on the ground? Or to learn the throwing aspect of judo? Another comment is about the stepping forward of the left foot first to start the contest from above. And just for general info after the contest is over you step back with your right foot first. Nuances that shouldn't matter when you look at why you are there. Or the comment on the BJJ forum about not starting out as a white belt like do you know who I am? Maybe your skills do not transfer to what we are teaching? Some do obviously. Enter white belt level contest(s) and if you beat everyone we will promote you.
5/5/11 11:05 AM
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gbutts
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judoblackbelt - Gary - I read the post on the BJJ forum and thought "you sat out the throwing"(that is why you are going) but wrecked EVERYONE one the ground. My first thought is why are you going to judo to beat everyone on the ground? Or to learn the throwing aspect of judo? Another comment is about the stepping forward of the left foot first to start the contest from above. And just for general info after the contest is over you step back with your right foot first. Nuances that shouldn't matter when you look at why you are there. Or the comment on the BJJ forum about not starting out as a white belt like do you know who I am? Maybe your skills do not transfer to what we are teaching? Some do obviously. Enter white belt level contest(s) and if you beat everyone we will promote you.




that guy is a fool and I told him that he was stupid, no sense in trying to duscuss things with person like that. He is the person that we don't teach judo
5/5/11 1:39 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Fool? ;) Nah, Gary, shen's good people. It's just tough to know when he's 'in character' or actually posting for real unless you communicate with him regularly.
5/5/11 10:14 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I think if any of us got together we would be friends.
Some of my best MA friends are BJJers that I have know
for 15 yrs. Each of us is biased to our favorite sport.
THe rules of judo make Bjjers gag. And the pulling of guard,
lack of a stand game makes us roll our eyes or shake our heads.
Judo folks are older and some are out of shape and not representative
of their belt level. BJJers are arrogant in that their superior ground
game triumps judo ground game and thus unwilling to follow judo rules/teachings/customs.
None of the talk will diminish anyones skills. This is what exists in the US.
On a world scale it is much different.
5/5/11 11:37 PM
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tarado4
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Chocolate Shatner - 
Additionally, I can see it from the perspective of a BJJ player, having been a guy who has trained with them, as well as without a gi with Greg Jackson. To go from the very open worlds of nogi and BJJ to judo is very frustrating. In nogi and BJJ, while the scoring rules can be up for debate, almost all other rules are only there for safety of the competitor. To go from that to judo with the numerous gripping rules, timing rules, banned techniques for no reason other than the IJF deems them "bad", etc, etc ad nauseaum would make many people not want to try it out.


.....But, some of their ideas make sense. For example, why have people training techniques that are ineffective? Why allow players to drop and turtle with no penalty, even though in real life that would be a sure fire way to get kick-fucked? At least with a guard pull you can still somewhat use your arms and legs to defend yourself.


well said sir

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