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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> JUDO AT BJJ AND MMA CLUBS


5/6/11 2:23 AM
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GB Dave Jr
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Am I the only one who seems them as the same art? Or at least they should be? I have been doing jiujitsu for 10 years.I recently started judo. Its not to improve my "BJJ". Its to improve my grappling ability. My spirit. My development as a human being. I recognize that there are flaws in every system. Maybe because people get too wrapped up on the label "system", etc. One day i will work my way around to wrestling, sambo, boxing, muay thai, shoot, maybe even fencing (maybe not :).

The point for my cross training, is that one day I hope to have a school. I want my students to be "complete grapplers". I dont want them to have holes. i dont want them pulling guard. I dont want them bellying down, waiting for a ref. I dont want them to be unfamiliar with leg locks. I want to provide the whole package.
5/6/11 2:52 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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^No, you're not alone. Some of us came up training both simultaneously(under the same roof, to boot), so our loyalties and appreciation run deep. But still, you can't help but think of each as seperate entities, because they are. Once judo gained olympic status it specialized and in some ways became isolationist re: rules, and bjj has pretty much focused on fighting/self-defense oriented groundwork, so it too is a specialized art, and even moreso if you consider the trend in sport bjj re: buttflopping and the 90/10 ratio of groundwork to takedown/throws training of *most* schools. And as such, people are going to pick sides and vehemently defend what is theirs(styles), even concerning stupid shit and/or things that could easily be remedied via open minds and crosstraining. But seeing how competitive rules and politics keep us all from adopting a Bruce Lee "way of no way" attitude with regard to styles, it's no easy task. People most times have to be dragged kicking and screaming to another's viewpoints, and as far as martial arts is concerned, it's usually by way of proving ______ works on the mat, in the ring/cage, etc.
5/6/11 7:58 AM
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judoblackbelt
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MGT- your comments provide more insight,depth and balance than anyone of this forum. Thanks,
5/6/11 10:21 AM
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GB Dave Jr
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So I guess that's where my limitation will come in then. I don't compete, and so will never "back up" what I claim. But at least I will have the luxury of self expression in the way that I see fit. My students will just have to trust me to steer them in the right direction. The line can be drawn in the sand, and I will stand directly on it.
5/6/11 10:21 AM
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GB Dave Jr
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Edited: 05/06/11 10:21 AM
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double
5/6/11 1:26 PM
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judoinmotion
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judoblackbelt - Gary, Having trained in BJJ for 8 years, blue belt from Royce Gracie, 4 stripes from Caique and numerous BJJ tournaments I understand completely the above discussion. Local BJJ clubs are contracting the best judo players to teach judo at their clubs thus expanding their services to include judo. Ex - Valco BJJ in Chicago has added judo taught by RJ Cohen. Locally Ted Tripp teaches at some of the local BJJ clubs. Ted has excellent "classical" judo. There is this gray area on what to teach BJJ players "judo" to help in their BJJ competitions. When I watch video of the top BJJ BB they pull guard, severe bent over/walk like a duck posture or one guy gets a takedown and the remaining 98% of the fight is on the ground. My thoughts are I don't want to be involved in teaching judo to BJJ players for the sake of BJJ. I just refused yesterday a local invite. I will get involved in teaching BJJ players judo for the sake of judo.

I also train in BJJ at Carlson Gracie Chicago and I have been invited to teach Judo there as well. Unfortunately had to decline due to time schedule. I think this is a great opportunity that the mind set of BJJ guys are changing. I understand what you're saying about high level BJJ guys pulling guard, but there are few who players who have shown big Judo throws in high level tournaments. In Brazil more then any other place in the world the BJJ guys are cross training in Judo and vice versa. My club has been very successful not only in Judo but in BJJ/Grappling tournaments. Meaning that the fact that we teach both here has not effect the performance in none. I teach what works for both. When there is a judo tournament ahead, I focus mainly in judo, when there is a grappling tournament ahead I focus in grappling/BJJ and we do a lot of morote gari and other leg pics! With that said, I also want my students to learn the philosophy, the correct terminology, the history of the Kodokan Judo, just like I learned. I'll be at the Jr. Open, hope to see you there!
Andre
5/6/11 1:40 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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judoblackbelt - MGT- your comments provide more insight,depth and balance than anyone of this forum. Thanks,

Ahh shucks, jbb! ;)

I contribute what I can and always hope it blossoms into meaningful discussion.
GB Dave Jr - So I guess that's where my limitation will come in then. I don't compete, and so will never "back up" what I claim. But at least I will have the luxury of self expression in the way that I see fit. My students will just have to trust me to steer them in the right direction. The line can be drawn in the sand, and I will stand directly on it.

Though organized competition(re: rules) divide us(styles), one is not limited to sport as a means of proving their art, themselves or their ideas. Every day you train you have an opportunity to demonstrate your skill/ideas on the mat to whatever audience you have at your disposal. Meaning, let's say down the road you suddenly receive an influx of buttfloppers with malice towards leglocks in your school, and being wise beyond your years you've advocated and prepared an attitude/environment of 'completeness' on your mats, so the result, naturally, is that you have an opportunity to lead by example/guide people away from their ignorance in what can often be a clearer, more intimate and meaningful way than that of the sporting stage. How's that, you ask? Well, firstly, it's because ____ people have come to YOU, therefore you determine whether or not the opportunity/experience will be postitive or boastful/antagonistic like it might be if you were out there to kick ass in competition. Secondly, the training/teaching environment affords you the luxury of immediately turning the proving ground into a lesson that comes with a theoretical/practical point, as opposed to being the work of a douche who's making things personal. And lastly, the fact that you bypass organized competition means you can train/teach any way you want, thus missing out on the 'joys' of politics and bias. ;) Instead, you and your students can strive for 'completeness' without having to fly flags or answer to anyone. Just know that there are those who'll envy and hate you BECAUSE of that freedom, however. lol
5/6/11 1:49 PM
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gbutts
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GB Dave Jr - Am I the only one who seems them as the same art? Or at least they should be? I have been doing jiujitsu for 10 years.I recently started judo. Its not to improve my "BJJ". Its to improve my grappling ability. My spirit. My development as a human being. I recognize that there are flaws in every system. Maybe because people get too wrapped up on the label "system", etc. One day i will work my way around to wrestling, sambo, boxing, muay thai, shoot, maybe even fencing (maybe not :).

The point for my cross training, is that one day I hope to have a school. I want my students to be "complete grapplers". I dont want them to have holes. i dont want them pulling guard. I dont want them bellying down, waiting for a ref. I dont want them to be unfamiliar with leg locks. I want to provide the whole package.


take a look at the complete grappler thread. My goal for my students is to complete grapplers.
5/6/11 10:50 PM
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Seong gyeong
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FWIW, I started in only BJJ. I liked judo, but there weren't as many dojos around. I started to develop more of a desire to train judo once I read one of Dave Cam's books in which he described judo as more "aggressive" than BJJ (if I remember correctly). I had quite a few guys complaining about my going to hard during rolling. (Looking back on it, I probably was, but I've never had that complaint in judo.)

Anyway, that seminar described in the original post does sound like a big let down. I was so excited to learn judo because I was so sick of the same old "running the pipe" take down that we learned at BJJ. And even then we only trained it before a tournament was coming up; the rest of the time it was start from the knees every time.

I now have a mutual appreciation for both arts. Though I train only judo at the moment, I'm thankful for what I learned in BJJ every time we do newaza. And to be a true grappler I think it's to your benefit to be proficient in both. Now if I only I would have tried out for wrestling in high school instead of wasting that 4 years of my life on video games.
5/7/11 12:17 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Missing Glove Tape - 
judoblackbelt - MGT- your comments provide more insight,depth and balance than anyone of this forum. Thanks,

Ahh shucks, jbb! ;)

I contribute what I can and always hope it blossoms into meaningful discussion.
GB Dave Jr - So I guess that's where my limitation will come in then. I don't compete, and so will never "back up" what I claim. But at least I will have the luxury of self expression in the way that I see fit. My students will just have to trust me to steer them in the right direction. The line can be drawn in the sand, and I will stand directly on it.

Though organized competition(re: rules) divide us(styles), one is not limited to sport as a means of proving their art, themselves or their ideas. Every day you train you have an opportunity to demonstrate your skill/ideas on the mat to whatever audience you have at your disposal. Meaning, let's say down the road you suddenly receive an influx of buttfloppers with malice towards leglocks in your school, and being wise beyond your years you've advocated and prepared an attitude/environment of 'completeness' on your mats, so the result, naturally, is that you have an opportunity to lead by example/guide people away from their ignorance in what can often be a clearer, more intimate and meaningful way than that of the sporting stage. How's that, you ask? Well, firstly, it's because ____ people have come to YOU, therefore you determine whether or not the opportunity/experience will be postitive or boastful/antagonistic like it might be if you were out there to kick ass in competition. Secondly, the training/teaching environment affords you the luxury of immediately turning the proving ground into a lesson that comes with a theoretical/practical point, as opposed to being the work of a douche who's making things personal. And lastly, the fact that you bypass organized competition means you can train/teach any way you want, thus missing out on the 'joys' of politics and bias. ;) Instead, you and your students can strive for 'completeness' without having to fly flags or answer to anyone. Just know that there are those who'll envy and hate you BECAUSE of that freedom, however. lol


While I agree that avoiding politics and establishing an environment of completeness is important, I would caution you MGT from totally eschewing competition. The competitive environment can foster a sense of "reality" better than some others. We only have to look at the "ninjas" and non-competitive karateka of the early UFCs to see this. However, that being said, obviously a sense of caution of avoiding "teaching to the competition rules" must also be avoided. My advice would be to have competition, but vary it. Go to judo comps, and BJJ comps, and nogi comps, etc. As long as the basic foundation fits what your dojo teaches, do it. Obviously, I wouldn't have a bunch of just grapplers enter a Muay Thai tournament.
5/7/11 12:47 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Well said.

Although I would like there to be less emphasis on sport in martial arts, especially where judo is concerned(ie: balance olympic dreams with appreciation what judo is as a whole re: philosophy, world view, self-defense, and method of physical culture), I in no way dismiss the importance of sport for its ability to keep people healthy and honest(ie: lower incidence of cult-like behavior). In the post above I was really speaking more toward's GB Dave's particular vision and how it need not be dependent on sport as a proving ground. So long as people are training in an alive environment where a premium is placed on performance(ie: rolling/randoring like they should) things will come together on their own, with people maintaining a certain level whether they compete regularly or not.

But without question, people should compete as much as they want in a variety of sports all the while not worrying about the "joys" of politics. ;)
5/7/11 1:19 AM
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GB Dave Jr
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of course. its only my personal training philosophy. I dont care to compete. I only care about training hard. Im not against competitions. I encourage everyone to do them. You learn a lot about yourself.

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