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HolyGround >> Attn: Grakman - Universalism


5/6/11 11:54 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I was curious to know if you think the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell (or, more biblically accurate Paradise and Gehenna) would fit within a Universalist biblical framework.  As you may recall, the general consensus among Eastern Orthodox teachers is that Paradise and Gehenna are not two separate places, but rather descriptions of how people will experience God in the resurrection based on the condition of their hearts.  Within this conception all the material elements of Paradise are present, but the people themselves refuse to give up something of their own selfishness and join in the communion of the Trinitarian life.  Unlike the concept of a created hell whereby God moves a certain portion of humans out of his presence, in this conception all humans have a share in the resurrection and are present in the Kingdom of Heaven.  The problem is some of them are unfit to experience it.

So my question is if people in this condition chose to remain in this condition despite always having repentance available to them, would this satisfy the criteria of Christian universalism?
5/7/11 2:59 AM
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Ridgeback
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 This isn't meant to be a trick question or anything.  I am just curious about your opinion as a Universalist Grak.
5/7/11 11:37 PM
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the rooster
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Gosh Ridge, you are smart. You used a lot of big words. I bet people really look up to you because you are smart.

"biblical framework, Gehenna, communion of the Trinitarian life, criteria..."

I bet you are smarter then the prophets aren't you? I bet you are smarter then the actual writers of the scriptures. I am in awe of you.

Are you (gasp) smarter then the Lord? He did say "greater works then these shall ye do..." (sorry about putting scripture in there but I didn't add the 'address').

I mean, if the pope can speak ex cathedra could it be that you also write ex cathedra?

Wow!

could you use the word "mother f'er" in your next piece of brilliant literation? It really captured your street cred's integrated into your other worldly brilliance.

Amazing.

I wish I wasn't so dumb. Could you say some Hail Mary's for me. Or chant the rosary for me? Maybe ask a dead saint to grant me grace to one day be endowed with wisdom from on high as you are?

I'm stymied by your dearth of knowledge and when I see you also are so talented and funny, I find myself coveting your brilliance. Please pray 5 "our father's" to the "team" in heaven if you would.

Ask the old dude and the young dude to convene with the bird to help me out because I just don't understand.

Oh, and could you clear up the whole "filoque" thing for me. I never understood why people had to die and why pacifist were going around killing each other.

I'm sure you could articulate it using big words and dropping a few "f" bombs.

Thanks.
5/8/11 12:21 AM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 05/09/11 2:50 PM
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5/8/11 12:31 AM
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the rooster
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wow.

Brilliant.

Did you ever take Kung Fu? You remind me of Richard Carradine.

5/8/11 12:55 AM
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Edited: 05/09/11 2:51 PM
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5/8/11 5:20 AM
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Grakman
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Ridge, I would say yes with the caveat that eventually everyone will participate in the Paradise of Trinitarian life. Otherwise, there will still be sorrow, still be pain, and I believe (with support of Scripture in my opinion) that God will eventually wipe away every tear and bring all of creation into loving communion with Him. Given what I have seen around here lately, this may take a while as there may be a number of believers there unable to get over the fact that God saved everyone and their disappointment at the recognition of the fulness of God's grace may be too much of a disappointment for them to bear. Phone Post
5/8/11 7:02 AM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman -  Ridge, I would say yes with the caveat that eventually everyone will participate in the Paradise of Trinitarian life. Otherwise, there will still be sorrow, still be pain, and I believe (with support of Scripture in my opinion) that God will eventually wipe away every tear and bring all of creation into loving communion with Him. Given what I have seen around here lately, this may take a while as there may be a number of believers there unable to get over the fact that God saved everyone and their disappointment at the recognition of the fulness of God's grace may be too much of a disappointment for them to bear. Phone Post

 Thanks.  Interestingly, my patron saint Isaac of Syria appears to have held this view based on some of his more recently discovered homilies although it is certainly a minority opinion in Orthodoxy  (as CU is for all Christian traditions).  
5/8/11 9:56 AM
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gord96
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Edited: 05/08/11 10:19 AM
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Grakman - Given what I have seen around here lately, this may take a while as there may be a number of believers there unable to get over the fact that God saved everyone and their disappointment at the recognition of the fulness of God's grace may be too much of a disappointment for them to bear. Phone Post


I don't think that's the case at all. I think most Christians would quietly hold out hope for a CU sort of scenario. But as much as you say there is scripture that is for a CU position, others say there is stuff that is against it. So you can see why not everyone just wants to jump on board. Many of the CU scriptures I have seen refer to all finding eternal life in Christ, etc. That doesn't mean that all eternal life will be pleasant. The Orthodox view of the afterlife really shaped my view on it, especially after comparing it with some scripture.

God may wipe away every tear, but I bet there will be those who will feel God's touch as a red hot iron across their tear streaked face. The more I read about it, the more I realize there will be some 'justice' to doll out first. After that...who knows what will happen.
5/8/11 11:37 AM
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Grakman
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Where did I say that there will be 'no justice doled out?' The word 'eventually' does not mean immediately the moment after death. It is a mischaracterization of the majority CU opinion to say there is no hell at all whatsoever. Phone Post
5/8/11 11:53 AM
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gord96
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1000 apologies old bean. i kinda posted without reading thoroughly. my bad :)
5/8/11 11:54 AM
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Grakman
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One more thing: I am aware that CU is not the majority opinion of Christendom. If I worried about being among the majority, I would be a Catholic. :-P Phone Post
5/8/11 11:56 AM
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Grakman
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No worries gord old boy, there was no blood drawn we're good! Thank you for the apology though. :-) Phone Post
5/8/11 2:45 PM
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the rooster
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Ridgeback - Want to explain why you are posting a bunch of anti-Catholic diatribes on a thread intended for Grakman only?  

me: sure. I felt like it. It illustrated nicely in my mind what an imposition your misrepresenations can be on threads where there is healthy debate.

you: Whatever beef you have with your former faith you deal with those issues on someone else's thread okay?

me: I don't have a beef with it. It's wrong. I was actually hoping that someone as brilliant as you would be able to articualte your prescription of pacifism while pretending that the Mother Church started with the catholic (little c) church that murdered people who didn't agree with them. Which is it?

What was constantine's vision? "In this sign you will CONQUER!"

you: And you would look a lot less stupid if you picked up a book from other traditions now and then and actually read what other people actually believe instead of framing all of your understanding in terms of your own direct experience of Catholicism and Oneness Pentecostalism.  

me: some people are ever on a journey. Constantly picking up other peoples views and looking for their interpretations of truth. I'm not looking. I've found the truth. I could care les whether you think I'm stupid. Your opinion of me means nothing about truth. Your a typical elite. You are searching for your intellectual peers who use big words and articulate nuance, and complexity and subtlety, where everything is clouded.

you: The vast majority of Christians are neither but you only seem capable of placing them on those two groups.  That is kind of the mark of a narcissist you know.

me: No it's not. I went to a Methodist college my freshman year, graduated from a liberal baptist college, and spent part of my search talking and researching muslims, jews, lutherans, and a number of other religions.

I found the truth. I don't need to reference all these other writers. I reference the greatest literary giants, which were the writers of the Holy Scriptures. It has nothing to do with narcissism, it is subordinating my feelings to truth.


5/8/11 8:40 PM
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Edited: 05/09/11 2:50 PM
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5/8/11 9:31 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/10/11 8:06 AM
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delete
5/8/11 10:19 PM
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Edited: 05/09/11 2:49 PM
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5/9/11 1:18 AM
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Grakman
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All I will say here is that I believe you will see one another in the New Jerusalem regardless. I trust the Hound of Heaven, the power and grace and mercy d God to do what he has said he will do - reconcile all mankind to himself. I trust in God's power more than the Calvinist and in God's love more than the Arminian. In my opinion, your God is too small. God bless you all and may there be peace between you. Phone Post
5/9/11 1:37 AM
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Ummm doesn't my first post imply what you say?   Also, how do you know the size of my God?  He could very well be in a higher weight bracket than your God.  After all, my God is the God of agape love, which is a love that requires freedom to exist, while your God ultimately allows no one freedom and therefore takes away the ability of some to join in his life of agape love.  


Note: I don't actually believe this about you, but I am simultaneously demonstrating that it is easy to misrepresent the beliefs of other people on here and apparently that is okay and also that your post came across as fairly bumperstickerish.


5/9/11 8:05 AM
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Grakman
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My apologies Ridge. Phone Post
5/9/11 12:27 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/09/11 12:43 PM
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Ridge, just deleted what I wrote. Listen man, pray about "it". I appreciate you taking the time to discuss and debate. I get frustrated with you but it's not about me and you. You are welcome to believe whatever you'd like about me. Less of me is better anyway. As John the Baptist said, "HE must increase and I must decrease".
5/9/11 12:33 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/09/11 12:44 PM
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5/9/11 12:35 PM
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the rooster
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Edited: 05/09/11 12:44 PM
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5/9/11 2:49 PM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 05/09/11 2:53 PM
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the rooster - Ridge, just deleted what I wrote. Listen man, pray about "it". I appreciate you taking the time to discuss and debate. I get frustrated with you but it's not about me and you. You are welcome to believe whatever you'd like about me. Less of me is better anyway. As John the Baptist said, "HE must increase and I must decrease".

 Fair enough.  I will delete my posts above and you might consider doing the same. 

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