UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> My theology for Josh


5/8/11 9:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27662
 
As Josh has questioned my ability to defend my "gospel" I will try to make a complete understanding of my beliefs in a short presentation. I believe that we are to be lead by the Spirit when speaking to any one person, so I can't say this is what I would say to someone who doesn't follow Jesus, because truth is, I would more likely invite them over for dinner.

God according to his word, created the entire cosmos, and the earth in particular. He created an atomosphere for life to be sustained upon this planet, and then created that life by the very word of his being. And then, as the crowning glory of Gods creation it was spoken "let us make man in our own image" So man was made, and God believed that everything created was good, including the image bearer man. Man was given a job, and a command, take care of the garden (which I can assume was done) and do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Well the snake (whom I insist is not a distant relative regardless of Josh's assertions) tempted the woman to eat basically saying God was a liar. In breaking the command, man became separated from God, his relationships with both the earth and his fellow man became compromised and he was lost. This lostness has been passed down from person to person, family to family for all of eternity.

It is easy to see that things are wrong. The world is not, nor could be the way God intended them to be. Man is no longer, very good, but mankind has become instead the enemy of light. This failure to be the good image of God, to miss the mark, is sin. I am careful to define this because sin has many faces. It is a sin to steal. But isn't it also a sin to purchase goods from a company that knowingly exploits its workers? Its a sin to commit adultery, but isn't it also a sin to look upon a woman as property? or as an object of your sexual fantasies? or to take such a woman and use her to sell products? Sin is both personal, and corporate. It is in our body, but it is also in our governments. Man is completely given over to sin, and this sin keeps us separated from God. This is where Josh and I probably disagree: I believe it is because our sin keeps us from being in God's love, not that it keeps God from loving us. Jesus says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whomsoever believes in him would have everlasting live, and that God did not send His son into the world TO CONDEMN THE WORLD BUT THAT THROUGH HIM IT WOULD BE SAVED. God has never stopped loving man, but man is incapable of being the image of God and accepting God's perfect love, because that perfect love would destroy him.

So man is lost in sin, yet loved by God. So God in his wisdom, sees that man is need of salvation. God's plan is for the son to leave heaven, leave power and authority and come to earth as a humble man, born of a poor virgin woman, in a poor family, in the ghetto of Judea, in an occupied time, and to walk through life sinlessly. To preach the rulership of God, to heal, to cast out demons, and to confront the religious institutions of his day. He calls his disciples (who are to be the future church) to follow him. He lives out the kingdom with them. Tells them parable after parable about what the kingdom is like. And he practices these lessons in their midst. He is training them not only what to believe, but how to live. When they ask whos going to be his right hand men, he tells them, don't be like that, if you want to be great, be a slave to everyone, just like I am going to lay my life down for you, you should lay your life down for others. He tells them to pick up their cross, and follow Him.

And then, when both the political and religious authorities had had enough, God used their power mongering, hate fueled fear, to fulfill all prophecy, and conquer sin, conquer conquer the powers and conquer death. They nail an innocent, non violent, anti political man to a Roman cross for treason.

So Christ, took upon himself the fullness of all of mans sins, the wrath of all the powers, and while taking all of this destroys it all, by placing love and forgiveness over it all. This event, is singular in all of history. It is so precious to Peter, that he wills that he not die in the same manner, as he is not worthy. On this cross, is nailed the law that accuses us, so we are made free to marry the risen Lord. On this cross is nailed all of the power of Satan. On this cross is nailed the result of all of history, past, present and future's sin.

And then, three days later, Jesus raises from the dead to show that He is indeed triumphant over sin, and death, and all of the powers that be. That Jesus is the victorious savior of all of the cosmos. That he is the beginning of God's reign.

This death and resurrection teach us both who Jesus was, and who we are meant to be. Because Jesus said, we are to pick up our cross and follow Him, we are meant to be followers, even to the death. There is no easy discipleship, we are called to death. And we are called to be raised up from death in the fullness of God's time, to continue to follow in Christ. It tells us that Jesus is the Messiah, the chosen one, who came not to set the Jews free from bondage and establish the kingdom by force, but to unleash God's Spirit from a temple, into our very beings. So that we might actually become the presence of God's Spirit on earth. That Christ was in fact, the very son of God, the fullness of deity, the exact representation of the fullness of God.

After raising from the grave, a fact that gives impetus to a whole new movement, Jesus instructs the disciples to wait for the power of God, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When this comes upon them, they actually begin to walk out the lessons of the kingdom they learned and lived with Jesus. They sold their homes and cared for the poor, they took care of the sick, they refused to serve in the army, they shared their belongings with one another and they practiced the open table, devoting themselves to the apostles teachings, and to prayer.

This church, is called to be the forefront of the kingdom of God. It is called to live as if Christ is in fact king. To, as Christ taught, let God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Now I know where Josh really wants to get to, my believe about the end times and hell. I will say I believe in hell, but I am certain it is not eternal in the sense that heaven is. I do believe Jesus will come back, and judge all of the powers, and make the earth into the garden again, where Isaiah says, justice will reign, war will be no more, and every tear will be dried up.

Please Josh, or anyone else, don't assume anything, or attack anything just yet, instead ask anything you want.

john
5/8/11 9:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27664
I know frat and I left a bunch out too

:)

Rev
5/8/11 10:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mmanthebay
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/08
Posts: 308
why are you certain that hell is not eternal as heaven is? In addition to your reasoning can you provide any experiences and/or media that led you to this certainty? Phone Post
5/8/11 10:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27665
I am certain that scripture does not teach this

Rev
5/8/11 10:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mmanthebay
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/08
Posts: 310
well, how about experience? What led you to this conclusion? Phone Post
5/8/11 10:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mmanthebay
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/08
Posts: 311
are you saying that you are certain that scripture does not teach that hell is not a place of eternal torment? Phone Post
5/8/11 10:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27666
My experience is more just being a father. I can understand kicking the girls out, I can understand leaving them to their own destructive ways, but I could never understand putting them in a situation of torment that they can never return from. I imagine God is atleast as loving as I

rev
5/8/11 10:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mmanthebay
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/08
Posts: 312
I understand your POV as he's a loving father. Not sayingI agree, but I understand that. Phone Post
5/8/11 10:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 1
Hi John,

I am curious to learn more about your beliefs, so I am thankful that you've invited others to ask you further questions.

Since you have quoted John 3:16, which deals with Salvation, I would like to know what your teaching on Salvation is.
5/8/11 11:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27668
Well that is a pretty intense question. Someone once explained that we are like someone who is lost in the ocean and someone throws us a life saver. In one sense we are saved as we grab it, in another we are being saved as we are pulled into the boat, and in another sense we are saved as we put our feet upon the boats deck.

I will go into it deeper later

rev
5/9/11 12:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27669
So, I believe that we are called by the Spirit and must answer that call to repent and believe in Christ and at that point we are "saved" and filled with the Spirit. But I believe that we work out that salvation with fear and trembling, finding out what discipleship really means, following after Christ, being lead by the Spirit. And in the end God finishes the restoration of all things, that death and the powers are finally overthrown, and every knee shall bow to Christ, and we shall be truly, fully and completely saved.

I think, like with most things we are called to live in the present, and look to the future. Its a now and not yet kind of thing. What Christ did, assured that those that trust in Him shall walk in his salvation. However, we see some intense words from Christ that go along with that... "if you do not forgive others neither will your father forgive you" "whatever you did to the least of these you did unto me" ect.

I think the thing that gets missed most of the time is the question saved unto what. In the church too often we focus on saved from what, but what are we saved to? The New Testament talks much about what we are saved to. We are saved to good works, to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, to submit to one another in love, ect. The Christian experience of salvation is not fire insurance, but the birth into an entire new life, and abundant life of service to our king.

rev
5/9/11 1:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 2
John, I really do appreciate your in-depth answer to my question, and I hope you don't mind me asking some additional ones, as I endeavour to better understand exactly what it is that you teach.

In keeping with your request, I will refrain from any personal attacks, instead, honouring your request in asking you questions.

In fact, I've got 3 more for you:

1. What do you understand Repentance to mean?

2a. What exactly is a person supposed to Believe and why?

2b. What will happen if a person does not Believe?

3. Are you saying that a person is saved by their Repentance and by their Belief?

I look forward to your responses.
5/9/11 8:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 4030
 I know you probably don't mean it this way workman, but reading your question it makes me think that salvation is about providing the correct answers to a test. If a person supplies the wrong answer to 2b for example, does that put them outside of salvation in your opinion? 

And rev, if you'd like to limit this thread to a Q&A with you, I withdraw my post and bow out of here politlely. 
5/9/11 8:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 3
Grakman, given that I have not made any positional statements, are you open to the possibility that you are being premature in your assessment of me?

After all, the blog host has set the boundaries for discourse, and respectfully, I am simply adhering to his wishes.
5/9/11 9:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 4033
workman, I'm not sure that I made an assessment of you but rather an assessment of your question. I am open to the possibility that you may believe anything though, having not had much in the way of conversation with you before now. 
5/9/11 9:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27675
Workman - John, I really do appreciate your in-depth answer to my question, and I hope you don't mind me asking some additional ones, as I endeavour to better understand exactly what it is that you teach.

In keeping with your request, I will refrain from any personal attacks, instead, honouring your request in asking you questions.

In fact, I've got 3 more for you:

1. What do you understand Repentance to mean?

2a. What exactly is a person supposed to Believe and why?

2b. What will happen if a person does not Believe?

3. Are you saying that a person is saved by their Repentance and by their Belief?

I look forward to your responses.



Well, The word repentance means to turn from something to another. The way I understand things now, is that we are to repent from our own rulership, and turn to God's. This is more than just a mental assent, but to actually accept a new way of life.

I find it hard to say. Because Jesus disciples began to understand who he was. When were they saved? Ultimately I think it starts with believing Jesus is to be followed. As we follow Jesus I think we realize our own limitations and sinfulness, and reach out to Him for true salvation, and find Him truly as Lord and savior. Which is why I struggle with the evangelism formula so much. Let me make you feel guilty, or lonely, or afraid or whatever, convince you that I have the answer, you make a mental decision, repeat a prayer that you don't understand, and you get to go to heaven. It just seems the gospels tell a story that was a bit more fluid in its meaning.

In acts we see a large group of people that respond to the same call the disciples did. They repent, and are baptised and begin to follow. I think they learn to believe as they go, if that makes sense. But we see an immediate change in lifestyle as well as belief. Acts 2 and 4 tell us of this change. But we also realize that in acts people have more to believe in. The gospels show us the disciples following Jesus, before the cross, and the resurrection. So they did not believe those things, in fact they didn't even believe the resurrection till it was proved to them.

If you don't believe you continue in your own sin, and you experience hell both now, and after your death.

I believe we are saved by Jesus. That our response to that, sets our hearts to their proper place, and makes us disciples. Its like a young lady we have just had staying with us. She had been clean and sober for 7 months. Her boyfriend started using again. We had been helping her out with some money and she came to the church in our home, but she was still stuck in this situation. We offered her our home to stay in. I believe she was "saved" from that situation the moment her "salvation" was prepared, but she didn't believe it, and turn from her old situation, for a number of weeks. When she did, she moved in and was beginning a new life.

btw, she is doing great now, got a job going to school and is reunited with her kids, woo hoo

rev
5/9/11 12:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 4
RECAP of our Q & A

1. What do you understand Repentance to mean?

John's response: "Well, The word repentance means to turn from something to another. The way I understand things now, is that we are to repent from our own rulership, and turn to God's. This is more than just a mental assent, but to actually accept a new way of life."

2a. What exactly is a person supposed to Believe and why?

John's response: Ultimately I think it starts with believing Jesus is to be followed.

Workman's comment: I assume that the above is your answer to 2a, but I am not sure.

2b. What will happen if a person does not Believe?

Workman's comment: John, I won't venture a guess on this one, as it seems clear that you have not answered question 2b.

3. Are you saying that a person is saved by their Repentance and by their Belief?

Workman's comment: Ditto! It appears that you have not answered question 3.

John, were you still thinking about your responses to my other questions, but neglected to tell me that your answers are pending?

Either way, please inform me whether you intend to answer, or if you do not wish to be asked any further questions.

Thanks in advance,

Workman
5/9/11 1:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27677
Workman, I did answer your questions.


1. Well, The word repentance means to turn from something to another. The way I understand things now, is that we are to repent from our own rulership, and turn to God's. This is more than just a mental assent, but to actually accept a new way of life.

2. a I find it hard to say. Because Jesus disciples began to understand who he was. When were they saved? Ultimately I think it starts with believing Jesus is to be followed. As we follow Jesus I think we realize our own limitations and sinfulness, and reach out to Him for true salvation, and find Him truly as Lord and savior. Which is why I struggle with the evangelism formula so much. Let me make you feel guilty, or lonely, or afraid or whatever, convince you that I have the answer, you make a mental decision, repeat a prayer that you don't understand, and you get to go to heaven. It just seems the gospels tell a story that was a bit more fluid in its meaning.

In acts we see a large group of people that respond to the same call the disciples did. They repent, and are baptised and begin to follow. I think they learn to believe as they go, if that makes sense. But we see an immediate change in lifestyle as well as belief. Acts 2 and 4 tell us of this change. But we also realize that in acts people have more to believe in. The gospels show us the disciples following Jesus, before the cross, and the resurrection. So they did not believe those things, in fact they didn't even believe the resurrection till it was proved to them.

2b If you don't believe you continue in your own sin, and you experience hell both now, and after your death.

3 I believe we are saved by Jesus. That our response to that, sets our hearts to their proper place, and makes us disciples. Its like a young lady we have just had staying with us. She had been clean and sober for 7 months. Her boyfriend started using again. We had been helping her out with some money and she came to the church in our home, but she was still stuck in this situation. We offered her our home to stay in. I believe she was "saved" from that situation the moment her "salvation" was prepared, but she didn't believe it, and turn from her old situation, for a number of weeks. When she did, she moved in and was beginning a new life.

I am guessing my answers aren't what you want? I can get deeper if you like. My point is that I believe this may be a process of figuring out the truth of who Christ is and isn't, rather than a once and for all knowing. I have discovered much about Jesus since I was born again. Some of my friends started following the way of Jesus, and discovered him as lord and savior many years later, and others have called him lord and savior but have never learned to follow or "do all that I commanded you" So I guess my answer is, I am finding out what is to be believed. But ultimately, if I had to make a definitive statement it starts with believing Jesus is worthy to be followed.

As to number three I believe people are saved not by repentance or belief, but by Jesus. The repentance and belief is our response to what Jesus did.

rev
5/9/11 1:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27678
btw, I will accept your anonymity if you desire, but it seems strange to me that you do not say who you are, and join this conversation after only being here for a few days. Most people are here years before they even know the holyground is on this site. Are you using a secret name in order to avoid a fight or something?

rev
5/9/11 1:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 4034
 Maybe someone brought in reinforcements. 
5/9/11 2:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 5
Hi John,

I assume that you and I agree that there are no 2 people who agree on all points regarding doctrine, and that is ok.

Agreeing to disagree is always the most prudent way of dealing with disagreement, right.

With respect to your responses to my questions, I do applaud you for being open in displaying your beliefs for all to see.

I wouldn't assume that your answers are not what I want, on the contrary, I am specifically interested in your personal beliefs, or I wouldn't ask.

That said, I would admit that, while for the most part I am comfortable with your answer and explanation of questions 1 & 3, I remain unclear to your answers to 2a & 2b.

Please allow me to articulate my difficulties:

Dealing with question 2a, the reason I am left unsatisfied by your answer, is due to the fact that the Bible makes it very clear that you can believe in "another" Jesus, but not the true Christ Jesus, who is revealed within the Scriptures (2 Cor 11:4).

John, perhaps this was not your intent, but your answer leaves much room, to what is a black & white reality surrounding the person of Christ Jesus, as revealed by the Word of God.

So, wouldn't you agree that it matters who a person believes Jesus to be?

Secondly, again, I give you the benefit of doubt, but you also left out that, a person who believes in Jesus, must necessarily believe in what He completed at the cross, and everything that it meant, no?


Regarding 2b, it would seem that, since you quoted John 3:16 & 17 in this blog post, you would simply refer to John 3:18 (or even John 3:36) in order to answer question 2a.

After all, the context of John 3 deals intimately with Jesus explaining to Nicodemus God's prescribed way of Salvation, and this also includes a very pointed contrast between those who believe, versus those who do not believe.

Is the Scripture incorrect when it says in John 3:18 that; "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son."

John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

So, based on John 3, it is very clear that the answer to question 2b would be that, the consequence of unbelief carries a heavy penalty of condemnation and wrath.

John, do you agree with these passages in John 3, as it pertains to declaring a consequence to unbelief?

John, once again, I do commend you for your open disclosure and polite and welcoming demeanour during our dialogue.

5/9/11 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
171 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/09/11 2:56 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27683
Yes, you are correct, following the right Jesus, the historical Jesus related to us in scripture, the one who died, and was raised from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated next to the father. However... the disciples did not believe these things when they began to follow did they? So were they therefore not saved until they did believe them? When did their belief in Jesus start? When they began to follow him. Which in the process lead to the belief in Jesus

As to your next questions, yes I do agree with those scriptures. But what do they mean? When God's wrath is poured out upon the Israelites how is that meted out (most of the time)? Usually it is by other nations, other kings. So what does that mean? God hates the fact that man, made in the image of God, has betrayed that image. That what man is created for, is not infact what he is being. And the consequences of this aberation of God's image is what? Man suffers violence, depression, distrust, alienation from God and other man. True life, eternal life, is then offered. An escape from the results of betraying the image of God. Through Christ we are freed and being freed from this wrath.

I must admit however that I am growing uncomfortable as I feel you are not "trying to learn about my beliefs" but rather attempting to critique them. Without saying who you are, it feels as though you are trying to set me up. Trying to stack a deck so you can win. If this is not the case forgive me, but despite your politeness, I feel like you are predisposed to look at me as your enemy.

In addition, I am not a theologian, nor an apologist. I am writing, without editing. I am not being careful, nor trying to be exhaustive. My mentors are far better at disecting doctrines, and bible passages. My goal is to live as Christ and the early church lived, and offer myself a living sacrifice. I preach Christ, and him crucified, but rather than allow the cross to only influence our salvation, I say it should influence our life as well. For just as Jesus was nothing without the cross, if we do not pick up our own we are betraying Christ and His cross.

rev
5/9/11 3:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 6
Grakman you said: "Maybe someone brought in reinforcements."

My reply: Grakman, depending on the implication of your statement, you might be right. But then again, you could be wrong...right!

In truth, I've actually known about the holyground site for a couple of years now, as a friend of mine has been a member for quite some time now.

The only reason why I have recently joined, is because I no longer participate in the blogging world at myspace, as their new layout has caused irreparable damage to the ease of use and communication.

The myspace changes have caused a massive exodus, when many people were looking for alternative sites to part-take in blogging.

John you asked: "Are you using a secret name in order to avoid a fight or something?"

My reply: It's a fair question! However, the answer is no.

While the handle "Workman" is borrowed from Ephesians 2:10, I choose not to use my real name due to the crazy things I've witnessed on myspace, in terms of hacking, invasion of privacy, etc.

Even to the point of finding out one's work number, and attempting to get them fired.

Admittedly, this was never an issue for me, as I used an alias on myspace as well.

Also, to be fair, the hacking incidents are more of a recent issue, as it didn't occur in my earlier years at myspace.

It is my hope that I have provided you both with a rationale explanation to my anonymity.

Workman
5/9/11 3:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TheHawker
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/4/05
Posts: 32033
Workman, how do you feel about the Trinity?
5/9/11 4:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Workman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 7
John you said: Yes, you are correct, following the right Jesus, the historical Jesus related to us in scripture, the one who died, and was raised from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated next to the father. However... the disciples did not believe these things when they began to follow did they?

My reply: Yes, it is certainly true that not all of them believed in who Jesus said that He was.

Doubting Thomas is a good example of that, since was in err, as he did not believe that Jesus was God, but of course we know that he capitulated, right (John 20:27-29).

On another relating point, it is interesting to note the sobering truths from Jesus, as He pointedly declares that a person will die in their sins if they do not believe that He is God (John 8:24).

Based on Jesus' statement, death is a clear consequence of unbelief.

As far as when the Spirit of God reveals who Jesus is (God), and what He has done to reconcile sinners to God, is unknown to man, and therefore, is God's business, agreed?

But one thing is for sure, Christ's sheep hear his voice, and the one's that do not, fail to, due to unbelief. And as such, are none of his (John 10:26)

Lastly, Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus' own words, while sitting on the judgment seat, plainly declares to these highly esteemed religious teachers of that day to depart from Him, as they are obviously not one of His sheep.

Therefore, if they are not going with Christ Jesus (who is God) upon judgment; then where do you suppose they are headed and why?

John you said: So were they therefore not saved until they did believe them? When did their belief in Jesus start? When they began to follow him. Which in the process lead to the belief in Jesus

My reply: John, as it pertains to our discussion on Salvation, I noticed that you have used the term, "to follow him", multiple posts.

Before I address your question, can you confirm what side of Salvation that you believe, "following" Jesus to be on?

In other words:

1) does an unsaved person follow Jesus to be saved?

or

2) does a saved person follow Jesus because he/she is saved?

I trust you'll find these to be very fair questions.

John you said: As to your next questions, yes I do agree with those scriptures. But what do they mean? When God's wrath is poured out upon the Israelites how is that meted out (most of the time)? Usually it is by other nations, other kings. So what does that mean? God hates the fact that man, made in the image of God, has betrayed that image. That what man is created for, is not infact what he is being. And the consequences of this aberation of God's image is what? Man suffers violence, depression, distrust, alienation from God and other man. True life, eternal life, is then offered. An escape from the results of betraying the image of God. Through Christ we are freed and being freed from this wrath.

My reply: John, to be very specific, what if a person chooses to not believe in the person of Christ Jesus and what He has completed at the cross?

Do you suppose that the Scriptures provide a more sobering outcome than that of depression. Say like separation from God?

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves, shall inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 6:9-10

In closing, John, as our dialogue moves further, similarly, so does my understanding of your beliefs, and naturally, it goes without saying, as logic would dictate that we are not going to agree on all matters of theology.

But I am happy that we can discuss these weighty matters with civility.

You certainly are correct that I am critiquing your statements of belief here, but then, I assume that you'd probably tell me not to take your words for it, but to test them by the Scriptures, right?

I don't know if you are the same, but most of my best learning experiences have come from being challenged, and or presented with alternative views.

And lastly, not that you've accused me of such, but I do not disagree with everything you have stated. Some I agree, some I disagree, and others I am noncommittal, as I do not yet fully understand.

In the end, it is not about winning, or losing, as being in service to the Lord should be all about Him, and zero about us, less we selfishly and foolishly seek glory.

Like you John, I am not a theologian, nor an apologist, and there are a countless, plethora of doctrine that I don't know, and this is why I have these discussions.

If what you are saying is all true, then sharing it would come with a great joy in Christ, if it is for self-less reasons, right.

In addition, from some of your statements, I assume that you are humble enough to recognize that you don't know everything, and that you as well leave room for the possibility that you could be wrong, or in the very least, unclear with some of the statements you have made in our discussion.

It is a strength when we can recognize and admit our short-comings, and yet, it isn't something for us to boast about, since our eyes and hearts is only open to the realization, through conviction from above.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.