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HolyGround >> My theology for Josh


5/10/11 10:06 AM
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gord96
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It's actually pretty simple. Without works, no matter how big or small the works are, there is no faith. The two are tied together. Paul is correct. It is faith that saves. That still doesn't change the fact that with even a small faith, works will follow, or faith isn't there. Phone Post
5/10/11 11:03 AM
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Grakman
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What I don't understand is the desire of people to tear down the rev. As far as I know he has made it abundantly clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation; what appears to be the stumbling block for some is the call to live out their faith in a way that makes them different than everyone else. By their fruits you shall know them; mere mental assent is not enough. Phone Post
5/10/11 2:37 PM
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Ridgeback
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gord96 -  It's actually pretty simple. Without works, no matter how big or small the works are, there is no faith. The two are tied together. Paul is correct. It is faith that saves. That still doesn't change the fact that with even a small faith, works will follow, or faith isn't there. Phone Post

I still think one of the best analogies is a poor young man being given a free ride by a rich philanthropist to an ivy league university.  All of his tuition, housing, and book costs will be paid for and there is no way he would be able to even get into this university if not for the generosity of the rich man.  Even so, if the young man does not attend classes and study then he won't receive the free education.  So in this sense you can rightly say that he would never have gotten through university without the rich man, but he still had to put effort in to what he was doing in order to avail himself of the generous gift.

Or another analogy is that of a cancer patient being treated by an oncologist.  The oncologist has the way to cure the patient, but the patient has to accept all the treatments, take his medications, and eat right in order for the cure to work.  It is a matter of cooperation, but it is also the case that the patient could never cure himself on his own no matter how much work he put into it.

I also think that when one conceives of salvation primarily in terms of communion with God rather than a ticket to heaven then it becomes silly to debate what saves you.  You wouldn't claim that you achieved theosis (that communion) without God anymore than you would claim that you achieved a marriage without a spouse.  You almost have to picture salvation as something apart from God in the first place to get wrapped up in what exactly accomplishes it.  
5/10/11 2:51 PM
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Ridgeback
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 And Workman's long and labored response (which is nothing but hidden hubris like Grakman pointed out) is a perfect example of how twisted most of Protestant theology has become.  There is always a way to slither out of even the most explicit of biblical teachings (horizontal justification is a new one) because the Bible isn't the real authority in the first place.  It is the men they follow and the theologies of those men that will always come first.  The Bible will be made to fit and then when it does the seal of God will be stamped upon it lest anyone claim to counter their interpretation (is it your opinion or the Word of God indeed).

And this is why I almost never bother with biblical arguments.  Take the Bible out of the Church and it becomes the play thing of whoever possesses it.  And this is almost certainly why Jesus never wrote anything even though he was literate.  It is why he founded his Church rather than called on his followers to draw up a catechism and let people live by that instead.   The Bible represents a part of the whole of the Church.  It represents some of the teachings of the Church (St. John and St. Paul both refer to more information not contained in their gospel and letters respectively) rather than a complete program.  There isn't even a guide for how to do liturgy in the NT.  And liturgy (a word stripped from many modern Protestant translations even though it is in the Greek) was already well in place when the first books of the NT were being written, and it took the Church nearly 500 years to really settle down on an authoritative canon.  It all makes perfect sense too when you take into account the fact that the early Christians were certain the Ecclesia would be there to pass down what Jesus and the Apostles first taught in a hands on manner.  Besides the fact that individual ownership of a Bible was impossible until the printing press was invented, the early Christians would never have conceived of simply handing someone a book and leaving it at that.  The Egyptian was lost in the pages until St. Philip was sent to teach him and I believe Christians who reject the past and try to interpret the Bible anew are likewise lost in the pages.
5/10/11 5:26 PM
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gord96
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Grakman - What I don't understand is the desire of people to tear down the rev. As far as I know he has made it abundantly clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation; what appears to be the stumbling block for some is the call to live out their faith in a way that makes them different than everyone else. By their fruits you shall know them; mere mental assent is not enough. Phone Post


as i said in another post, the Rev has done exactly what Jesus has wanted. He asked the Holy Spirit what was HIS will. And John went and did it. He moved his family, put his family in uncomfortable situations and put himself in danger. 95% of Christians don't even want to know what the Holy Spirit would convict them to do if they asked. I know I am.

The plain truth is the Rev has done nothing un-scriptural. Yet people get all up in his grill cause his theology doesn't match theirs to a tea.
5/10/11 8:14 PM
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Workman
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gord96 said: It's actually pretty simple. Without works, no matter how big or small the works are, there is no faith. The two are tied together. Paul is correct. It is faith that saves. That still doesn't change the fact that with even a small faith, works will follow, or faith isn't there.

My reply: Agreed; and that is the point that James was making. If you say you have faith prove it by your works. Show your fellow man the quality of your faith.

So yes, a person is indeed Saved through Faith alone as you have indicated above, and I am happy to see that you have not made the same error as the others here, who without Scriptural support, teach that the Word of God says that a person is Saved by their works.
5/10/11 8:19 PM
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LoveToChoke
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So Workman, if someone has faith, but not work, are they saved? It seems like that's an easy way out - pay lip service but not carry through with actions. Why would you condemn someone who says you need both, and actually lives and tries to follow in Jesus footsteps? Phone Post
5/10/11 8:24 PM
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LoveToChoke
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I'm guessing that what Rev does makes others feel uncomfortable, as they see someone actually living his faith, not just talking it. So they retaliate by claiming he is a heretic or not following the one true path that is so obvious ( except that millions of other Christians are obviously wrong too). Phone Post
5/10/11 8:37 PM
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Workman
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Grakman you said:

workman,
I don't know you at all, so perhaps I am unfair in my criticism, but nevertheless I will say that your politeness appears contrived, the type of politeness one might hear at royal court before ordering the beheading of a political enemy. You're formal and civil, but you give the appearance of starting out this conversation with the rev in an attempt to prove him 'wrong' according to what you believe. "Who is correct John, you or the Word of God?" as though you speak from on high for God himself and your interpretation of various verses is the correct one, like some type of parent patiently telling a child where he is in error.

My reply: Lol, Grakman, I find your concern to be quite dramatic. And since it is true that you do not know me, just as I asked you and John to take my word for it that I am not a troll, I again ask you to take my word for it when I tell you that; however I may be initially perceived by you, I come here with no ill will, hatred, or vitriol.

Given that reality of my imperfections, I may not always express myself in a way that exudes gentleness, but again, who really could expect to know how to take my general mannerisms, inflections, tone, style, etc?

Hopefully I haven't given you any reason not to give me the benefit of doubt.

Though, perhaps there is hope, as, earlier in the blog, you accused me of having an element of condescension.

But later on, you seem to loosen up a little by providing me with a back-handed compliment, in stating that rooster wouldn't create a new screen name just to be polite.

Even if you didn't directly call me polite, coming from you, I'll take it anyway I can get it, thanks (lol).

5/10/11 8:43 PM
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Grakman
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Workman - gord96 said: It's actually pretty simple. Without works, no matter how big or small the works are, there is no faith. The two are tied together. Paul is correct. It is faith that saves. That still doesn't change the fact that with even a small faith, works will follow, or faith isn't there.

My reply: Agreed; and that is the point that James was making. If you say you have faith prove it by your works. Show your fellow man the quality of your faith.

So yes, a person is indeed Saved through Faith alone as you have indicated above, and I am happy to see that you have not made the same error as the others here, who without Scriptural support, teach that the Word of God says that a person is Saved by their works.
Way to introduce yourself to the board workman. What makes your intrepretation the right one? Where do you get your authority? Who do you think you are to come here and in less than two days insult people as though you have the Sum of All Biblical Knowledge??

You need to come down off your high horse and engage people as an equal instead of some kind of lord. 
5/10/11 8:46 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: What I don't understand is the desire of people to tear down the rev. As far as I know he has made it abundantly clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation; what appears to be the stumbling block for some is the call to live out their faith in a way that makes them different than everyone else. By their fruits you shall know them; mere mental assent is not enough.

My reply: I assume that you've added me to this list of those who "tear" John down, though I do apologize if my assumption is incorrect.

But if I am correct; I don't believe that you have a basis for suggesting that I am tearing John down in here.

Why, well, lets use the illustration of the Bereans (Acts 17:11) to see that there is a precedent for not taking the words of a man, but to compare it to the Scriptures, to see if what they say is indeed the truth.

And you are right, John does state that Salvation comes through Christ Jesus, for which we agree.

However, John also says that Salvation comes through works, I can find many passages to support the former, but I cannot find one passage to support the latter.
5/10/11 8:49 PM
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Workman
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Grakman you said: Way to introduce yourself to the board workman. What makes your intrepretation the right one? Where do you get your authority? Who do you think you are to come here and in less than two days insult people as though you have the Sum of All Biblical Knowledge??

You need to come down off your high horse and engage people as an equal instead of some kind of lord.

My reply: Grakman, I fail to see how disagreeing with other persons equates to being a know-it-all, lord, or being on a high-horse.

If this be the case, then logic would suggest that the same applies to those with opposing views from me.
5/10/11 8:54 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 05/10/11 8:55 PM
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 No workman, logic does not suggest the same. It is possible to have a discussion and disagree without condescencion: 

A: Hi, I believe that people are saved from Hell only by faith in Jesus. Here is why.
B: Really, I believe it takes an element of both faith and works. Here is why.

The End

Your version of a conversation goes like this:

A: I believe that people are saved from Hell ony by faith in Jesus. Here is why. 
B: Really, I believe it takes an element fo both faith and works. Here is why.
A: You're wrong and you don't know the Scriptures. In fact, I think you may not even be a Christian. 

Now I could end this here, but I will give you an example of a condescending statement:

Everyone should know this is a condescending form of conversation. You learn how to relate to people in kindergarten.

See? 
 
5/10/11 9:25 PM
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Workman
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LoveToChoke: So Workman, if someone has faith, but not work, are they saved?

My reply: I'll refer you to the thief on the cross, for what work did he do to be Saved?

Next, I'll refer you to the OT to, which concisely illustrates the Biblical doctrine of Salvation:

Genesis 15:6

"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Now, I will refer you to the Gospel that John referenced in this blog, this being John:

John 3:16 (as spoken by the Lord Himself)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Here's another one from the mouth of Christ Jesus:

John 6:28-29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

What about Luke?

Acts 16:30-31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved.?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Paul says the same thing in Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 28; 4:3, 5; 10:10-13; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8.

But lets take a look at Romans 4:5:

"But to him that worth not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

LoveToChoke you said: It seems like that's an easy way out - pay lip service but not carry through with actions. Why would you condemn someone who says you need both, and actually lives and tries to follow in Jesus footsteps?

My Reply: You ask a very fair question. My response to it is that, I do agree that there is a need for both Faith and Works, but is the relationship between Faith and Works that I am addressing, as it pertains to Salvation.

The Scriptures clearly declares that Salvation comes through Faith.

Upon Salvation, a person is then Saved onto Good Works. In other words, a person is not Saved by Good Works, but rather, they are Saved onto Good Works (Eph 2:8).

Why, because Good Works before Salvation are considered works for self-righteousness, such as what the Pharisees exhibited, as hi-lighted Matthew 7:21-23, where these esteemed religious leaders were said to do wonderful works, and they even knew the Jesus was the Lord.

And yet, Jesus tells them to depart and calls them workers of iniquity.

To so conclude, we have a vast plethora of Scriptures that proclaim that Salvation comes through Belief / Faith, and not one that says that it comes via works.

And lastly, Christ Jesus laying the foundation of Faith, without works for Salvation in John 6:28-29, which harmonizes with Luke's writings in Acts 16:30-31, which again is reconciled by Paul, who makes it clear that Salvation comes through Faith, and then goes on to specify; without works (Romans 4:5; Romans 11:6; and Ephesians 2:8).

5/10/11 9:32 PM
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Workman
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Grakman you said: No workman, logic does not suggest the same. It is possible to have a discussion and disagree without condescencion:

A: Hi, I believe that people are saved from Hell only by faith in Jesus. Here is why.
B: Really, I believe it takes an element of both faith and works. Here is why.

The End

Your version of a conversation goes like this:

A: I believe that people are saved from Hell ony by faith in Jesus. Here is why.
B: Really, I believe it takes an element fo both faith and works. Here is why.
A: You're wrong and you don't know the Scriptures. In fact, I think you may not even be a Christian.

Now I could end this here, but I will give you an example of a condescending statement:

Everyone should know this is a condescending form of conversation. You learn how to relate to people in kindergarten.

See?

My reply: No Grakman, I don't see. In fact, I disagree, and here's why.

Because your examples are fabricated, and illustrated as though they are direct quotes.

Grakman, I invite you to engage me in this theological discussion, as so far, you have managed to focus more on me, and far less on what I believe.

Do you think we can have a little give and take?!?!





5/10/11 9:51 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 05/10/11 9:59 PM
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No thanks workman.  I'll spare me and you both the aggravation. I have no desire for you to tell me how wrong I am and that I do not know the Bible and / or that I may not be a Christian. I can see from your discourse with the rev that  your intent is not to share your beliefs or maybe learn anything but to show others how they are wrong, i.e. do not agree with your theology exactly.  

What you do not know about me (or most anyone here) is that we may not have just fallen off the theological turnip truck yesterday. From what I have gathered in my short time here on the Holyground is that most of us have been on a long spiritual journey, studying the Scriptures, learning, absorbing. You make arguments and points about various Scriptures that many of us have already studied and analyzed and compared to other Scriptures and drawn different conclusions than you. It is somewhat of an affront to be told by some anonymous character you have just met on the Internet that 'you are wrong and you're not a Christian'.  

If you'd like to start your own thread like the rev and just lay out your beilefs, by all means do so. But I'm not going to share mine so you can pick at my statements line by line like you're grading an exam. 
 
5/10/11 10:18 PM
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Ridgeback
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 The Bible Game 2.0 (TM):

Elicit a biblical argument from your target.

Reject biblical argument through various means.

Reassert that target is obligated to convince you using scriptures and point out that he must use the Word of God rather than his own interpretations.  
5/10/11 10:25 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Why, well, lets use the illustration of the Bereans (Acts 17:11) to see that there is a precedent for not taking the words of a man, but to compare it to the Scriptures, to see if what they say is indeed the truth.


Perfect example of twisting the story around.  St. Paul preaches Jesus to the Bereans from what we call the OT scriptures.  The Bereans had never seen that interpretation before so they went back to the scriptures to verify what St. Paul taught them.  You imply that the scriptures were open to them before they received a new interpretation from an authoritative teacher who was in communion with the Apostles.

If the Bereans had been left with the OT and no one had taught them how to open the scriptures they would have remained ignorant of the gospel.  You are implying that they understood the scriptures and then tested St. Paul's teaching against them.  Serious revisions in your theology across the board.  But that is because your theology was passed down to you (that is what the word tradition means) and then you interpreted the Bible through the lens of your tradition (and if the Protestant Reformation isn't a tradition of men then what is considering the fact that people actually name their entire traditions for these men) from that point on.  Now you are saying the Bible and your tradition are one and the same, which is really saying your tradition is the Word of God but the problem is thousands of other sects that equally claim that they follow the scriptures have arrived at very different theological conclusions because their traditions of men were different from yours.  
5/10/11 10:41 PM
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Grakman
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 ^ Not only that, I do not see an apostle here explaining the Scriptures, either.  
5/10/11 10:46 PM
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gord96
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Good post Ridge. While I do believe the Bible is God's Word, I think it was meant to be used as a whole, not broken down into little bits and pieces for different sects and traditions to fire back and forth at each other. It's like a wonderful, magnificent bridge, with Christ in the center as it's keystone holding everything together.

I think the Bible as a whole is pretty clear. It only becomes complicated when people dissect it like a frog and examine it in tiny pieces and think they are on to something.
5/10/11 11:23 PM
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Workman
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Ridgeback you said: Perfect example of twisting the story around. St. Paul preaches Jesus to the Bereans from what we call the OT scriptures. The Bereans had never seen that interpretation before so they went back to the scriptures to verify what St. Paul taught them. You imply that the scriptures were open to them before they received a new interpretation from an authoritative teacher who was in communion with the Apostles.

My reply: Ridgeback, you have made a ton of assumptions here.

So, rather than presume what I was saying, allow me to speak for myself.

I do agree that Paul was referencing the OT, and no where did I indicate otherwise.

And I agree that the Bereans referred to the OT, and once again, no where did I even hint otherwise.

Ridgeback you said: If the Bereans had been left with the OT and no one had taught them how to open the scriptures they would have remained ignorant of the gospel. You are implying that they understood the scriptures and then tested St. Paul's teaching against them. Serious revisions in your theology across the board.

My reply: More presumption! But if I didn't make it clear enough for you, upon hearing what Paul had to say, they simply checked to see if what he preached could be found and verified in the OT scriptures.

For example, if you tell a person that Jesus is God, because he has never heard about Jesus, they can simply read and search the scriptures to confirm whether this is true or not.

Hopefully this has better convey the intent of my words.

Ridgeback you said: But that is because your theology was passed down to you (that is what the word tradition means) and then you interpreted the Bible through the lens of your tradition (and if the Protestant Reformation isn't a tradition of men then what is considering the fact that people actually name their entire traditions for these men) from that point on.

Now you are saying the Bible and your tradition are one and the same, which is really saying your tradition is the Word of God but the problem is thousands of other sects that equally claim that they follow the scriptures have arrived at very different theological conclusions because their traditions of men were different from yours.

My reply: More innuendos, as I have not once declared myself to be a Protestant, and nor have I ever proclaimed to follow any earthly man.

Perhaps you can copy and paste a quote as evidence, otherwise I am forced to believe that you are only interested in baseless misrepresentations and character assassinations.
5/10/11 11:41 PM
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Grakman
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 ^ So basically your purpose here is to confront everyone and tell them where they have erred? Or are you just waiting for someone to ask you what your believe? Oh wait, more presumption on my part right? lol 
5/11/11 12:28 AM
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reverend john
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If you take care of the least you are saved if you don't you go to hell that is scripture

If you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven that is scripture

If u want to be perfect sell all you have and give to the poor and follow me scripture

Repent and believe again scripture

Abraham did prepare to sacrifice and it was accounted as righteousness

See the difference is I don't say one or the other I recognize the two as both being true and the glass being dark which we see in part.

Where does salvation come from? From Christ and his work alone where does our understanding of Gods salvation start? In faith but is faith ever complete? Nope we know in part. As we do works we learn more and our faith grows. Is it possible that for some people their faith is not in the risen lord and savior bit the teacher from galilee whom they start to follow until they get to a deeper faith? Sure seems like that was true of the apostles when were they saved?

So... You know exactly how and why and when and I say you cannot pin it down as scripture doesn't

Rev
5/11/11 12:35 AM
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Ridgeback
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Workman

 1. Whether the Bereans were reading the OT was never a point of contention or an accusation.  I was merely framing the narrative.  I didn't accuse you of assuming they were reading the NT or anything of the sort.  

2.  Insisting on an argument strictly from scripture is a Protestant (and more precisely fundamentalist) method of discourse.  Your insistence that John provide biblical proofs (rather than quoting Fathers or the Didache or Church councils) is as big a tell that you are in that line of traditions as boobs are that we are probably dealing with a woman.

3. Your theology has all the hallmarks of American fundamentalist Christianity so you can just go ahead and divulge what church you attend.  If I turn out to be wrong based on my analysis of the evidence of your rhetoric then I will apologize gladly.
5/12/11 2:28 AM
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Workman
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John you said: If you take care of the least you are saved if you don't you go to hell that is scripture

My reply: Or; if you take care of the least, perhaps it is because this is the actions of a person who is already in a Saved position.

By the way John, though this will sound odd, considering that this is your blog, but, welcome back.

John you said: If you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven that is scripture

Or, another way of looking at it is that, a person already in a Saved position will be more apt to forgive, through prompting of the Holy Spirit.

John you said: If u want to be perfect sell all you have and give to the poor and follow me scripture

My reply: John, since you have spoken exhaustively about how you believe and teach that a person must do Good Works to be Saved, my question is; have you sold all that you have in order to have the perfect righteousness, required for Salvation.

John, do you have perfect works to bring God in order to procure your own Salvation?

John you said: Repent and believe again scripture

My reply: I agree with this statement, but I disagree with your application, as the logical conclusion of your teaching on this is predicated on an individual's ability, through works, to be their own co-savior with Christ.

This would mean that, contrary to the Scriptures, Christ's work was not finished, and that He didn't do enough by Himself to Save sinners.

Of course, by now, you know that I don't believe this to be the case at all, as a person is Saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, and in Christ alone.

John you said: Abraham did prepare to sacrifice and it was accounted as righteousness

My reply: Sincerely John, thank you for dealing directly with one of my Scriptural quotes.

Here's my question for you; what was the time frame from the point that Abraham offered up his son for a sacrifice, as compared to when he (Abraham) believed, and it was counted to him for righteousness?

John you said: See the difference is I don't say one or the other I recognize the two as both being true and the glass being dark which we see in part.

My reply: John, and neither have I. Not once have I rejected the call to works, I have said all along that while works are not required for Salvation, they are indeed necessary to prove the quality of one's Faith.

John you said: Where does salvation come from? From Christ and his work alone

My reply: Agreed! And this necessarily would mean that a person is not required to provide Good Works in order to be Saved, no?

John you said: where does our understanding of Gods salvation start?

My reply: Since mankind born dead in trespasses, being wrecked and lost in darkness, they'd never seek or desire to be Saved, except they be drawn by God (John 6:44).

A person must then hear the gospel in order to be convicted to Repent, and as well to believe (Romans 10:14-15).

Mark 4:10-12 will confirm that, in order to receive the mystery of the gospel, or the mystery of the kingdom of God, it is essential for one to perceive and understand, which is impossible for the natural man, who is born dead. And as such, cannot hear or see.

This is why the Scriptures declares that the only way an individual can know the mystery of the gospel, is by the following:

It must be manifested, which is truth revealed (Col 4:3-4).

The mystery must be given through revelation, which again, is truth revealed (Romans 16:25).

The Holy Spirit reveals the mystery of Christ's will (Ephesians 1:9).

2 Cor 4:6-7 is a nice description of the conversion experience, yet, in order for conversion to take place, the mystery of the gospel must be revealed to the one who becomes Saved at the point of conversion.

Now, the converted individual may not know about all things in the realm of the heavenliness, or all there is to know about God, but these passages are unequivocally clear that the person in a Saved position will know the gospel.

For that is the mystery that to the one who is able to perceive and understand.

John you said: In faith but is faith ever complete? Nope we know in part. As we do works we learn more and our faith grows. Is it possible that for some people their faith is not in the risen lord and savior bit the teacher from galilee whom they start to follow until they get to a deeper faith? Sure seems like that was true of the apostles when were they saved?

So... You know exactly how and why and when and I say you cannot pin it down as scripture doesn't

My reply: John, all along, we have been discussing your theology on Salvation, with the emphasis and specifics of how a person is Saved.

Never did I pose the question of "when" a person is Saved.

In fact, I've already pointed out the the "when" is God's business.

But as far as faith being complete, yes, it certainly is in Christ, since He is both the starter and finisher of one's faith (Hebrews 12:2).

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