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HolyGround >> My theology for Josh


5/12/11 2:30 AM
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Workman
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John, if you prefer a short post, I'll make every effort moving forward.

But as well, maybe we could deal with one point per post.

Let me know.
5/12/11 10:19 AM
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reverend john
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Sorry I came back you as I knew you would twist everything to make yourself right

You share nothing of yourself and you continue to suggest that it is a matter of me not following s rupture but with you it's "proper interpretation".

Please start your own thread how about you share how you actually
Live which should prove how marvelous these unnecessary works are proof of your faith

I will not speak to you again on this thread and I would ask other not to as well

Rev
5/12/11 10:27 AM
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Grakman
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 workman: "My reply: Since mankind born dead in trespasses, being wrecked and lost in darkness, they'd never seek or desire to be Saved, except they be drawn by God (John 6:44)."

me: John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (emphasis added)

Welcome to Christian universalism workman. It's good to have you on board.



5/12/11 11:45 AM
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Workman
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John you said: Sorry I came back you as I knew you would twist everything to make yourself right

My reply: John, if this is so, then don't you agree that it would be far more effective for you to articulate and explain how I have twisted your words?

After all, it is you who has continually taught that a person must perform Good Works to be Saved, correct.

Well, is it a fact that the evidence of your belief on this point can be found right through out this blog?

Yes, of course it is there for all to see.

So, the logical conclusion is that you believe that Salvation comes, via Christ Jesus, plus something in the way of offerings, and or, works from man.

Therefore, my only intent is to ask you how to harmonize your theology with the Scriptures, which say things like, Jesus is the only way (John 14:6), if what you teach is that, it is Christ plus man example.

Or, Romans 8:8, which says:

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

And I've already quoted Titus 3:5, which again makes it beyond clear that a person is not saved by works of righteousness, which they have done.

Since this open blog is a public declaration of what you teach; I remain curious as to your method of teaching, since it appears that you are not at all interested or comfortable in fielding questions about your beliefs, as if it should be a one-way discussion.

Acts 17:11

"These were more noble than those in the Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

John, please do not be offended if I don't take your word for what you are teaching, as the above passage clearly is a great example for how we are to confirm and ensure that what someone is saying, as compared to the Scriptures.

1 Thess 5:21

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Again, we are exhorted to prove all things, truth obviously matters. In fact, it can be the difference between life and death.

After all, those highly esteemed and zealous religious folks were quite sincere, but unfortunately they were sincere in error.

They even did wonderful works (Matt 7:21-23, but they could not earn their own way into the kingdom.

John, are the works you speak of more impressive than casting out demons, because it certainly didn't work for those Pharisees (Matt 7:23), who were told to depart, since they were "workers" of iniquity.

Perhaps Jesus is trying to tell us something about the error of offering up one's "works" in order to gain entrance, as this would be akin to a purchased Salvation, and thus, in this way, Salvation is no longer a Gift.

John, as far as me, the most basic and simple way to explain to you who I am is that, I am a wretched sinner in need of a Saviour, whose best efforts are to please a Holy God fall short, and will continue to do so on this side of existence.

To bring it home for you John, there is nothing good in me, and I absolutely and positively deserve death.

So, in the event you are looking for some dirt on me, it doesn't get any spottier than that, I trust you'll agree.

But then, I suppose that, this is why I am need of a Lamb without spot.

John, another very important point that, for some unbeknownst reason, continues to be lost on you, is that I never said that works are unnecessary, and nor did I even hint at that.

To recap; I specifically said that Good Works are necessary to prove one's quality of Faith, but they are not necessary for Salvation.

For if Good Works were necessary for Salvation, then Paul is a liar for saying that the one who does not work, but believes on Christ Jesus, is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

Did Paul and Silas lie when they responded to the question; what a person must do to be Saved (Acts 16:30)?

They explained that a person must Believe on the Lord Christ Jesus, that is it, so why should I agree with your position, when I continue to run into contradictions, upon searching to see if what you say is true?

As well, Jesus would be a liar, since He declared that the thief on the cross would see Christ in Paradise.

How does this point harmonize with your theology, given that there is only one prescribed way by God to be Saved, which is by Grace alone?

After all, what Good Work did the thief offer up?

And did Jesus lie when He told the Pharisees that the work of God is to Believe on Him who He has sent (John 6:28-29)?

You share nothing of yourself and you continue to suggest that it is a matter of me not following s rupture but with you its "proper interpretation".

John, in essence you have taken the very drastic measures to censure me, because my questions continue to make you uncomfortable, as it points out a disconnect in your theology, and you are unable to reconcile it.

If I don't say another word on this blog, I am hopeful that many of the onlookers will at least be able to discern these things for themselves, as it appears that you have utterly allowed your pride to blind you to the folly of your vain imaginations.

Proverbs 16:25

"There is a way that seemeth right unto man; but the end thereof are the ways of death."

To conclude; what is so special or amazing about God's Grace if a person is required to perform Good Works in order to procure his/her own Salvation?

And what would make True-Historical-Traditional Christianity so special to that of Islam, or any other religion or philosophy of the world?

John, it is my hope and prayer that by God's Grace, you will at some point recognize that there is a responsibility on your part to reconcile these many inconsistencies within your theology.

After all, you refer to yourself as a Reverend, but more importantly, the Bible calls us to prove all things. Why the aversion!

Why have I become your enemy because I offer you an alternative view?

And while you certainly have every right to bow out, I marvel at the fact that you want to control discussion to the point of choosing for others to refrain from any dialogue with me.

I am utterly astounded that you'd move to such lengths to cease and control civil discourse.

And since you have not added any such blog rules, I can only perceive it as someone picking up their toys and leaving, because they didn't get their own way with a particular individual, but that isn't enough, as they make sure to wield their authority, by telling others not to talk to the individual.

Your antics are very transparent John, but I do sincerely thank you for allowing me to play in your playground (figuratively), while it lasted.
5/12/11 11:48 AM
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Workman
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John, it appears that Grakman has not heeded your command to refrain from further discussion with me, so I am now seeking permission from you to continue dialogue with him.

I will await your decision before I respond to him.
5/12/11 12:12 PM
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reverend john
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I am no facist do as you will all of you my
Permission is not needed

Rev
5/12/11 12:24 PM
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Workman
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John, since I don't know you, I actually was beginning to think that you were behaving like a fascist, so I do thank you for clarifying.

Grakman, in response to my previously statement, "Since mankind born dead in trespasses, being wrecked and lost in darkness, they'd never seek or desire to be Saved, except they be drawn by God (John 6:44)."

You said: John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (emphasis added)

First of all, just a slight correction; I meant to say wretched, instead of wrecked, but that is neither here nor there.

However Grakman, I fail to see the relevance of your statement and point, as it pertains to the discussion.

Please explain!

Lastly, hopefully you were not being sarcastic when you welcomed me to this forum. If not, then I thank you very much, and sincerely appreciate it, as I have not felt very welcomed up to this point.
5/12/11 12:28 PM
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reverend john
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And to clarify not to start new conversation I did not say you twisted my words you twisted the scriptures I paraphrased by basically saying well they didn't mean what they quite literally say

Rev
5/12/11 1:02 PM
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reverend john
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Edited: 05/12/11 1:04 PM
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Also so you understand I feel no need to wrangle with you for three reasons:

One because in the end this is esoteric bullshit the truth is faith and works are so wrapped together you cannot separate them

Two because I have heard your point of view a million times and held it myself until I actually got in the streets and found that the gospel as preached in most evangelical churches was not good news to the poor because it was fire insurance and not a new life

Three because you have not shown any inclination to be anything more than a scribe and the book lawyers don't interest me as they rarely live out what they say they know

Rev
5/12/11 1:19 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Workman, it seems to me that you are misrepresenting what Rev is saying. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see him saying that you earn salvation through works. What I get from him is that you can't separate the two, which is supported by Scripture.

Paul says we are saved through faith. OK. But what does faith mean? Is it merely agreement that Jesus was God and died for our sins? What does it mean to "believe" in/on Jesus? I think James clarifies this. It isn't about justifying your faith among men, it's about justifying your faith period. He says if you don't have these works, you don't have the faith that Paul is talking about. Jesus affirms this with the "least of these" statement.
5/12/11 1:24 PM
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reverend john
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Bingo
5/12/11 1:57 PM
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yusul
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hi, just a quick technical clarification for workman who came from myspace and may not totally be up to speed on ediquette here at mma.tv:

this forum is different from a blog because reverend john doesn't have total control of the forum regarding bannings, etc. that would be the website creator kirik or chris.

i believe reverend john is a moderator who can freeze threads, but when he was telling people on this thread not to talk to you, he was offering his view and it wasn't an actual order to other people, nor do other people have to listen.

if a thread actually gets offensive, it will automatically be frozen when you click on it, or deleted. the main thing is to avoid banning or freezings is if you don't attack someone personally, threaten, etc.

but you are allowed to debate viewpoints or philosophy at will. i believe he would have actually giving you a literal warming if your account was going to get frozen.

also, to reinterate workman's belief (and my belief as well), i agree from my understanding of scripture that ''Good Works are necessary to prove one's quality of Faith, but they are not necessary for Salvation. ''

so if i'm not misquoting his view, i believe he is saying that works (helping the poor, showing charity, preaching the gospel, etc.) is an important and defining part of Christian life on this world. that was never the issue.

his focus is on the specific topic of works regarding 'salvation', not works regarding our 'lifestyle.'
5/12/11 1:59 PM
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yusul
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also, workman, if you don't mind a suggestion, while reading your thread, i think it might be easier to put quotes around what you are pasting or quoting from somebody else. cheers,
5/12/11 2:22 PM
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Grakman
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Workman - Grakman, in response to my previously statement, "Since mankind born dead in trespasses, being wrecked and lost in darkness, they'd never seek or desire to be Saved, except they be drawn by God (John 6:44)."

You said: John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (emphasis added)

First of all, just a slight correction; I meant to say wretched, instead of wrecked, but that is neither here nor there.

However Grakman, I fail to see the relevance of your statement and point, as it pertains to the discussion.

Please explain!

Lastly, hopefully you were not being sarcastic when you welcomed me to this forum. If not, then I thank you very much, and sincerely appreciate it, as I have not felt very welcomed up to this point.
I don't know that it has a point other than to show you how easily one's posts can be misrepresented. I doubt that you believe in universal reconcilation, as I do, but by making the statement that you did I am able to show by Scripture that God will have all men to be saved, i.e. as you said they cannot be saved unless he draws them and Jesus said he will draw all men to himself. 

My welcome was not a welome to the board it was a welcome to the theology of Christian Universalism related to the above so I suppose yes it was sarcasm. 
 
Further, I get the impression you want to debate for the sake of debating and are deliberately ignoring what people are saying in order to hammer home your own theology. If you would like to post a sermon or breakdown of your theology by all means do so, you do not have to couch it in the form of a debate. To me you come across as smug and somewhat of a show off. (Is that you PastorJosh?)

Finally, can you tell me why anyone should accept you or your interpretation of the Bible over anyone elses (I say this despite the fact that I think there is no real disagreement between you and the rev re: soteriology, rather you want to exclude faith from works whereas the rev shows you faith by works.)
5/12/11 2:27 PM
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Grakman
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Perhaps this article will help explain the relationship between faith and works

The Semitic Totality Concept


5/13/11 10:20 AM
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Workman
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John you said: Also so you understand I feel no need to wrangle with you for three reasons:

One because in the end this is esoteric bullshit the truth is faith and works are so wrapped together you cannot separate them

My reply: John, with all due respect, there was never any point in our dialogue that I denied or even hinted in any such rejection of a relationship between Faith and Works.

How many times, or different ways must I explain to you that I am interested in learning your beliefs regarding Faith and Works as it pertains to Soterology?

To simplify: Is a person Saved by Works, or are they Saved unto Good Works?

John you said: Two because I have heard your point of view a million times and held it myself until I actually got in the streets and found that the gospel as preached in most evangelical churches was not good news to the poor because it was fire insurance and not a new life

My reply: John, I am troubled by the fact that there is a lack of evidence within this blog to support that I have said any of what you are purporting me to to say within your 2nd objection to continuing dialogue with me.

Would the arena of Logics refer to this cheeky sort of behaviour as building a strawman argument?

John you said: Three because you have not shown any inclination to be anything more than a scribe and the book lawyers don't interest me as they rarely live out what they say they know

My reply: John, I disagree, and as it pertains to our discussion on the relationship between Faith and Works, you will certainly find direct quotes on this blog where I have stated that a person is Saved onto Good Works (Eph 2:10), which would necessarily evidence my support for Good Works.

The distinction is that, I take the position that a Saved person will produce Good Works, because the Scriptures makes it unequivocally clear that a person is "known" by their fruit (Matt 7:20), and NOT, saved by their fruit.

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