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HolyGround >> What must I believe about Jesus to be saved?


5/17/11 6:41 PM
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Grakman
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What must I believe about Jesus to be saved?

Part 2: As a Christian do you believe Mormons are 'saved?' If not, why not? What particular belief(s) makes them 'unsaved?'

5/17/11 7:25 PM
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reverend john
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define saved

:)

rev
5/17/11 8:47 PM
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Workman
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Great blog topic Grakman!

FIRST QUESTION: What must I believe about Jesus to be saved?

ANSWER Part 1a: A person must believe in the person of Christ Jesus to be the Creator, Almighty, Alpha Omega, God in the Flesh (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; John 1:1, 14; John 20:28).

For Jesus says, speaking to the Pharisees, if anyone denies His deity, they will die in their sins (John 8:24).

ANSWER Part 1b: A person must believe what Christ Jesus did to Save sinners.

This being that He first lived for those whom He saves. By living perfectly to the Law, Christ established His perfect Righteousness, of which God the Father would accept.

For, since God is Holy, He cannot be in the presence of sin, which is why a person must be perfect in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is why, in God's plan of Salvation, He chose to impute Christ's Righteousness to those who believe in who He is, and His finished work at the cross.

For, Christ's bodily resurrection was the assurance for our faith, that those who believe in Him, will be raised together with Him.

So to conclude, a person must believe that Salvation is conditioned solely on who Christ Jesus is, and what He has completed.

SECOND QUESTION: As a Christian do you believe Mormons are 'saved?' If not, why not? What particular belief(s) makes them 'unsaved?'

ANSWER part 2: Mormon theology is predicated on polytheism, which is akin to worshipping false idols (paganism).

So this immediately disqualifies them from salvation, since the inherent teachings of their faith leads to a denial of Monotheism.
5/18/11 9:59 AM
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Grakman
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reverend john - define saved

:)

rev

 And therein lies the rub.  :)
5/18/11 10:44 AM
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770mdm
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Yikes. A man created the universe? I guess I'm out. Phone Post
5/18/11 12:39 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Workman - For, since God is Holy, He cannot be in the presence of sin, which is why a person must be perfect in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.


Something I've never understood about this is if Jesus is God, and God can't be in the presence of sin, how was He able to be completely surrounded by it while He was here?
5/18/11 1:17 PM
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reverend john
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God can be in the presence of sin that is a silly idea as we know God is everywhere

The idea is that when we experience the fullness of Gods presence and love we cannot handle our own sinfulness. Hence Peter catching a glimpse of Christ's deity falls on his knees and says depart from me as I am a sinful man

Rev
5/18/11 1:19 PM
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reverend john
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In addition Jesus declared sins forgiven without ritual sacrifice or the atonement of the cross. Christ can forgive our sin by his word

Rev
5/18/11 9:22 PM
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Workman
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Hey inlikeflynn,

Thank you for asking this fair question, which deservers a response.

Allow me to make a correction: I do agree with John's point that God can be in the presence of sin, which obviously seems a contradiction to my original statement.

But rather than vacillating, please allow me to clarify.

The statement in question by you isolated, can be taken in a multiple of ways, however, relating to the theme of this blog, which is on Salvation, I was referring to the other side (of Salvation).

In other words, The Bible makes it clear that where ever True Believers in Christ end up ( New Jerusalem), we can be sure that they will not enter with any sin, and nor will any iota of sin ever be present in this new dwelling place.

Particularly after the judgment!

Therefore, as mentioned in Revelation chapter 21, the Scriptures does indeed make it quite clear that, since God is obviously opposed to sin, He will (in every way) separate sin from the New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 21:1).

Revelation 21:27

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worth abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

With emphasis on "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth..."
5/18/11 9:36 PM
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Workman
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John you said: In addition Jesus declared sins forgiven without ritual sacrifice or the atonement of the cross. Christ can forgive our sin by his word

My reply: Agreed, Jesus did forgive sins during His earthly ministry.

However, I'd caution you from making the error to assume that, just because Christ hadn't gone to the cross at the time He forgave sins, it doesn't mean that His substitutionary atonement didn't not pay for the sins prior to His death.

In fact, I'd make the statement, that His finished work at the cross paid for all those, past, present, and future, whosoever believe in Him.

Hebrews 10:14

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Colossians 2:13

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
5/19/11 10:23 AM
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reverend john
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Jesus didn't say by my future sacrifice I will forgive you now. By declaring sins forgiven he was proclaiming himself the new temple.

Rev
5/19/11 11:48 AM
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Workman
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John you said: Jesus didn't say by my future sacrifice I will forgive you now. By declaring sins forgiven he was proclaiming himself the new temple.

My reply: John, the implication of what you are espousing leads to a diminished understanding of God's character.

While it is true that God is Love, God is also Just, and therefore, as it pertains to your above statement; God cannot allow sin to just be swept under the carpet.

It must be atoned for by the shedding of blood (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10).

This is a Biblical doctrine found in the rampant in the NT, which has much precedent in the OT.

Isaiah 53:4-6

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So John, while we both agree that Christ Jesus saves His people from their sins (Matt 1:21); evidently we seem to disagree on the how.

John, how do you feel about allowing the Scriptures to be the final authority on this issue?!

2 Corinthians 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1 Peter 2:24

" Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

John, judging by these above passages, it would seem to perfectly lay out the fact that the Bible declares a Biblical doctrine of atonement, of which, Christ Jesus went to the cross to pay for those sins, which a Just God cannot turn a blind eye to.

While up on the cross, why did Jesus say, "it is finished"?

What was finished?

Could it be that His redemptive work was finished, as the payment for sins was completed at the cross?
5/19/11 12:19 PM
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reverend john
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Could it be that you are the one that does bot let scripture be scripture when it doesn't fit your scribal systematic theology? Jesus quite clearly is God. God quite clearly declares sin to be forgiven. Are you saying God cannot do something? In fact are you saying God cannot do what he asks us to do Which is forgive? So what is it workman the bible or your teaching? Oh of course it's your teaching that displays the full counsel of scripture and your interpretation that takes all scripture and harmonizes it into perfection. Well good for you. I am sure the scribes felt the same way and Jesus really dug them

Why dont you tell us why you are not a scribe and a Pharisee and a book worshiper

Rev
5/19/11 12:41 PM
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reverend john
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And just to be clear to everyone playing the bible game

Matthew 9 a group of friends bring a paralyzed man lower him through the roof and Jesus says to the man "your sins are forgiven" the Pharisees say that is blasphemy (winder if they quoted a bunch of scriptures" and Jesus answers "what's easier? To say your sins are forgiven or to say rise up and walk? BUT SO YOU MAY KNOW THAT I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SIN take up your bed and walk"

As a father made in the image of God and filled with the Spirit of Christ I can tell you that I am quite capable of forgiving my daughters with no punishment or blood letting. This does not in any way diminish Christ sacrifice it glorifies it a Christ died not just to forgive man but to redeem the entire cosmos

Rev
5/19/11 12:59 PM
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the rooster
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Workman, I agree with you. The world was created with the work and ministry of Jesus Christ in the Mind (logos) and bosom (Heart) of the Almighty before anything was made.

Through Him and By Him were all things made.

Adam was made in His image (in the similitude of the 2nd Adam).

The bible says that "...the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world..."

The first sacrifice was in the garden,; the shedding of blood to cover Adam and Eve, the death atonement which was in the similitude of the cross.

The Lord forgives us on the basis of His work on the cross. Pre/Post forgiveness was found by the One outside of time who saw the work, and knew it was finished before time was.

rev: And just to be clear to everyone playing the bible game

me: "bible game"? I hope it's not a pejorative to actually quote the book/verses where we get our beliefs. No one should feel awkward about posting the verses.

rev: As a father made in the image of God and filled with the Spirit of Christ I can tell you that I am quite capable of forgiving my daughters with no punishment or blood letting. This does not in any way diminish Christ sacrifice it glorifies it a Christ died not just to forgive man but to redeem the entire cosmos.

me: right because 1) Christ blood is perfect, our's is not. We can forgive personal slights and wrongs to ourselves but that doesn't erase the consequences of someone who sins against God almighty. He chose the medium (the Cross) to provide that cleansing.



5/19/11 12:59 PM
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the rooster
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Workman, I agree with you. The world was created with the work and ministry of Jesus Christ in the Mind (logos) and bosom (Heart) of the Almighty before anything was made.

Through Him and By Him were all things made.

Adam was made in His image (in the similitude of the 2nd Adam).

The bible says that "...the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world..."

The first sacrifice was in the garden,; the shedding of blood to cover Adam and Eve, the death atonement which was in the similitude of the cross.

The Lord forgives us on the basis of His work on the cross. Pre/Post forgiveness was found by the One outside of time who saw the work, and knew it was finished before time was.

rev: And just to be clear to everyone playing the bible game

me: "bible game"? I hope it's not a pejorative to actually quote the book/verses where we get our beliefs. No one should feel awkward about posting the verses.

rev: As a father made in the image of God and filled with the Spirit of Christ I can tell you that I am quite capable of forgiving my daughters with no punishment or blood letting. This does not in any way diminish Christ sacrifice it glorifies it a Christ died not just to forgive man but to redeem the entire cosmos.

me: right because 1) Christ blood is perfect, our's is not. We can forgive personal slights and wrongs to ourselves but that doesn't erase the consequences of someone who sins against God almighty. He chose the medium (the Cross) to provide that cleansing.



5/19/11 1:01 PM
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the rooster
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Remember that Cain's sacrifice was rejected while Abel's was not. Abel shed the blood. Cain didn't. Vege's don't bleed :-)

God defined where and how and why grace is applied.

Grace is found at the cross and poured out at God's meeting place, at His discretion, not ours.
5/19/11 1:11 PM
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reverend john
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The fact is rooster the bible clearly says what Jesus said and did. Workman is saying but it doesn't mean what it says because this scripture this scripture and this scripture. And then accuses me (in his annoying passive aggressive way) of not bowing to scripture. So he basically makes Jesus words and actions in the scripture null and void and accuses me of denigrating scripture. Hypocritical

And bible worship is idolatry Jesus is the way the truth and the life it is through Christ and Christ alone that we find the Father. The scriptures enlightened by the Spirit are a tool to reveal Christ (notice scripture without spirit is dead). To say Christ by the very power of his authority cannot forgive sin is pharisaical bullshit which Jesus confronted right then and there

I am sick and tired of ivory tower systematic know it alls acting like I don't love and follow the scriptures.

Rev
5/19/11 1:13 PM
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Grakman
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Workman / rooster:

When we repent and believe on Christ, are all of our sins forgiven, past present and future? 

And if our sins are forgiven, does that mean that we do not suffer punishment for those sins? 

And finally, it is a sin to fail to do what we should do (act of omission) or is a sin only an act that we commit (sin of commission)? 
5/19/11 2:09 PM
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the rooster
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reverend john - The fact is rooster the bible clearly says what Jesus said and did.

me: agreed. But the bible was meant to be viewed much like a tapestry. Each independent thread has meaning as does the "big picture". I can read one line of Cinderella..."Cinderella did not get to go to the ball..." and in doing so have the completely wrong idea. Jesus forgave sin but this forgiveness was purchased at the cross.

you: Workman is saying but it doesn't mean what it says because this scripture this scripture and this scripture.

me: well, I don't think he is saying that. He's saying that Jesus did forgive them of sin but it was the Cross that purchased that forgiveness. And using scripture, rather then opining is a good way to support your position. Jesus taught who He was prior to the NT by showing how the OT taught who He was and what He would do.

you: And then accuses me (in his annoying passive aggressive way) of not bowing to scripture. So he basically makes Jesus words and actions in the scripture null and void and accuses me of denigrating scripture. Hypocritical.

me: whoa. I read this as a hearty debate. A way to introduce our positions in the theological market place and to express how we came to this conclusion.

you: And bible worship is idolatry Jesus is the way the truth and the life it is through Christ and Christ alone that we find the Father.

me: what is bible worship? The bible is God's written word. How do you separate someone from their words. If I write a letter to my kids while I'm travelling for business, they don't separate my written words from the thoughts of my mind. If I send an email to my wife, telling her I love her, instructing her to pay a bill, asking her to call me later, she doesn't separate my words from me. They express my thoughts and intentions.

you: The scriptures enlightened by the Spirit are a tool to reveal Christ (notice scripture without spirit is dead). To say Christ by the very power of his authority cannot forgive sin is pharisaical bullshit which Jesus confronted right then and there.

me: Rev, I believe he agreed with you. He just said that the price had been paid in His mind by what He was set to do. At least that's how I understood it or how I would explain it. Jesus had a plan (the Logos) that existed prior to the creation. Everything was known before hand (man's failure and sin, there need for a redeemer, His death, burial and resurrection, His marriage with the church, etc.) and so His forgiveness was predicated on His work, forshadowed and implied prior to His death.

you: I am sick and tired of ivory tower systematic know it alls acting like I don't love and follow the scriptures.

me: well, I don't know that this is what He was saying but I'll leave that to you two to hash out.

Guys, I think these discussions are very important and it's ok to disagree and even to find fault with one's views. How else can we learn, study, examine, express if we all agree

:-)
5/19/11 2:52 PM
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reverend john
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Discussion is fine but making passive aggressive comments that I think my own opinion means more than scripture isn't iron sharpening iron. The truth is Jesus forgives and does not condemn son in many places you "believe" he is using his future intention as that mechanism. I believe he is practicing what he tells us to practice and is identifying himself as the temple (place where God and earth intersect) my position is biblical. And further more it is a call to follow in practical life instead of some theoretical crap that once again leaves Jesus worshipped but not followed.

This guy show up (at josh's disappearance) starts pretending to be polite while calling me in essence a false teacher never opens up about himself at all. It is disingenuous it is rude and it does nothing to build up the body

Rev
5/19/11 3:18 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 05/19/11 4:45 PM
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reverend john - And further more it is a call to follow in practical life instead of some theoretical crap that once again leaves Jesus worshipped but not followed.

Rev


Jesus actions in the Gospels are instructions to his followers/believers on how to get closer to God in THIS age. The less stuff you own, the more you will rely on God. Helping the poor and other selfless acts continue this. When one lives for self or for material and worldy things, it blocks out God from their hearts. Jesus instructions are not about "hey guys. help the poor cause it's cool and nice"...it's truly about connecting with God, which in turn will increase your spiritual treasure in the Age to Come.

A good example is the rich man who is willing to do ALMOST anything to follow Jesus. The one thing he won't do is sell all his possessions. Which will decrease his treasure in Heaven.

I can only imagine the closeness the Rev has felt at times with God when he put himself and his family in situations where God was all he had to rely on.
5/19/11 3:24 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 05/19/11 4:45 PM
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5/19/11 5:10 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - Discussion is fine but making passive aggressive comments that I think my own opinion means more than scripture isn't iron sharpening iron. The truth is Jesus forgives and does not condemn son in many places you "believe" he is using his future intention as that mechanism. I believe he is practicing what he tells us to practice and is identifying himself as the temple (place where God and earth intersect) my position is biblical. And further more it is a call to follow in practical life instead of some theoretical crap that once again leaves Jesus worshipped but not followed.

This guy show up (at josh's disappearance) starts pretending to be polite while calling me in essence a false teacher never opens up about himself at all. It is disingenuous it is rude and it does nothing to build up the body

Rev
John, why do you think he is being passive aggressive John? John, now don't you admit that he knows more about the Bible than you, John? And John, wouldn't you agree that your hermaneutic , John, of living the Gospel, John, cannot compare to his erudite knowledge and ability to wrangle the Scriptures, John?
 
5/19/11 5:14 PM
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the rooster
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Grakman - Workman / rooster:

When we repent and believe on Christ, are all of our sins forgiven, past present and future? 

And if our sins are forgiven, does that mean that we do not suffer punishment for those sins? 

And finally, it is a sin to fail to do what we should do (act of omission) or is a sin only an act that we commit (sin of commission)? <br type="_moz" />



good questions:

yes

no

both are sins

:-)

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