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HolyGround >> Glenn Beck turnin Religious Zombie

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5/24/11 5:49 PM
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LoveToChoke
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Rooster, what exactly was wrong with that Obama quote? What do you find offensive in that? Phone Post
5/24/11 9:35 PM
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the rooster
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you: Well done captain obvious. He is a political leader of a secular country

me: ...it's not a secular country. It's a deeply religious country. Primarily Christian in it's ethos and origins. Look at the seals all around washington. Look at your money. read the state constitutions. And he's not a leader. He's a radical and a revolutionary.

you: ...and government that is involved in 3 wars in Islamic middle eastern countries and is entirely dependent on relationships with Islamic countries for energy supplies.

me: we are not "completely dependent". That's a joke. Like usual you have no facts.

http://dunner99.blogspot.com/2006/05/how-much-oil-does-america-import.html

"Last year, the U.S. imported 3,670,403 thousand barrels of oil. Of those 3.67 billion barrels of oil, the U.S. imported from a total of 42 different countries. The top 5 importing countries were Canada (16.34%), Mexico (15.42%), Saudi Arabia (14.30%), Venezuela (12.24%), and Nigeria (10.54%), for a total of 68.84% of all American imports.

In contrast, imports from countries 6 through 10 (Iraq, Angola, Ecuador, Algeria and the United Kingdom) make up only 16.84% of the total, with countries 11 through 42 making up the remaining 14.33%.

Looked at another way, only 21.69% of America's oil imports come from the Persian Gulf region. Per the DoE, the Persian Gulf includes Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates; however, Iran and Qatar export no oil to the United States.

If we compare imports from OPEC countries vs. non-OPEC countries, we find that non-OPEC countries are now in the majority, 52.64% vs. 47.36%.

And, with the exception of one year, 2001, non-OPEC countries have been in the ascendancy since 1994."

That doesn't count our own alternative energy, coal, and our own ability to produce here if you left wing nuts would allow us to disturb the home of the dart snail and caribou.

you: Playing diplomatic nice with the dominant religion of those regions is a wise move.

me: yes, Neville Chamberlain did the same with the evil of his day...appeasement (playing nice) fed the "hunger".

you: But you are correct, if he was to give the proper Christian view on Islam he would say something along the lines of "Islam is a false religion, headed by a false God and a false prophet. All infidels who are beholden to this religion will burn in hell for all eternity. And I'll send my country's armies to help you along the way".

But doing that would make be utterly idiotic. It should be completely obvious why.

me: um...he didn't have to call their false book "holy". He didn't have to make up their contributions to the known world, and excuse and turn a blind eye to their horrific abuses and crimes, their lack of freedom under sharia, or to bow to their leaders, literally.

That was completely idiotic and submissive, which oddly is what islam means. Submission.
5/24/11 9:42 PM
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the rooster
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you: That was a pretty ugly thing to say, Rooster. You're better than that, or at least I hope you are. It's one thing to not like the man's politics/ideas/policies, but it's pretty childish to take a shot at his family like that.

me: I truly believe he is searching for his identity and that like most men, lives in the shadow of wanting to please his father (especially one who abandoned him, who abandoned his mother). His father was a radical, and muslim and anti US.

And yes, his mother also abandoned him to her parents and had multiple marriages and relationships which I think was her own way of trying to shock.

I do pray for him and his family (wife and daughters) and wish he wasn't our president. Bad dude.
5/24/11 9:47 PM
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the rooster
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Joe Ray - Obama is not only the worst socialist ever, just look at company earnings and stock market growth under his presidency, he is also the worst Muslim ever, just look at the number of islamic terrorists including the biggest of them all, whom he has ordered killed.

Hussein 1 - Deranged right wing US douchebags 0.


LOL, looks like your idols are above critique eh? Thank God he had the work of the very men he's prosecuting. Did you see the picture of him hiding behind Hillary and Panetta's skirts, indecisive, and then spiking the football after the fact.

The market is very fragile right now and all the money he's pumped into it is a false air bag. Also, you do a great discredit to the mom and pops all over the US working hard in spite of our socialist and chief to grow the economy. He's given us well over 9% unemployment (claiming he would get us well under an 8% max), grown the debt through the roof, created deep division in our country, expanded the patriot act, started another war in the middle east, and it's obvious he traded bin laden for Israel.

5/24/11 9:49 PM
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the rooster
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LoveToChoke - Rooster, what exactly was wrong with that Obama quote? What do you find offensive in that? <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


3 things:

1) calling the Koran holy
2) lying about the contributions of Islam
3) ignoring the horrific theopolitical depotism of these terror states under Sharia (killing their daughters, wives, taking slaves, blowing up civilians-women and children with their own women and children), lobbying bombs behind human shields, making jews and christians 2nd class citizens.

I don't want to join hands with communists, klansmen, nazi's or terror theocratics living through *their* "holy" book.
5/24/11 10:06 PM
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LoveToChoke
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You're wrong about the contributions of Islam - chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, architecture, writing, physics etc all were rediscovered by Western Civilisation thanks to the muslims. How you can ignore this is just silly.

However, making an enemy of these nations and the people of these nations will not help them change. How did that work out for you under GWB? Two wars is not the way to change the "hearts and minds" of the Islamic world.

You don't make friends and convert people to your side by denigrating their culture and religion. It's called diplomacy.
5/24/11 10:17 PM
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Grakman
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Is it ok for us to ask Obama to be diplomatic with the citizens of his own country? Just asking.
5/24/11 10:47 PM
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the rooster
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LoveToChoke - You're wrong about the contributions of Islam - chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, architecture, writing, physics etc all were rediscovered by Western Civilisation thanks to the muslims. How you can ignore this is just silly.

me: sigh. chemistry, mathematics, astrony, *WRITING*?!!?!...ETC. were lost by Western Civilization. C'mon man.

you: However, making an enemy of these nations and the people of these nations will not help them change.

me: We did not make them an enemy. And this is critical. THEY MADE US AN ENEMY. We have had to deal with muslims since the days of the pirates, through multiple presidencies including Carter, Clinton, and Obama who were all "kumbya" guys.

They hate us because we 1) are Christian and/or secular 2) supported Israel historically and 3) aren't their brand of Islam.

you: How did that work out for you under GWB? Two wars is not the way to change the "hearts and minds" of the Islamic world.

me: He wasn't trying to change the hearts and minds of the Islamic world. He was punishing al quaida in Afghanistan and punished Iraq.

He said anyone supporting terrorism is at war with us.

Obama made peace with Islam and then waged a 3rd war!?!?

you: You don't make friends and convert people to your side by denigrating their culture and religion. It's called diplomacy.

me: Let's say McVeigh or the Klan actually were the rulers of their own country. Let's say they were funding radicals purportrating terror in the name of the bible. Would you make friends with them?

Should we have just made friends with Hitler?

How about Fred Phelps?!

How true it is, with friends like this, who needs enemies?
5/24/11 10:50 PM
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the rooster
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Is calling Glenn Beck a religious zombie a way to make friends and convert hearts?

How about calling religious folks, "bitter clingers".

What about calling those who oppose you politically "tea baggers and nazi's"?

I didn't know muslim warriors were so sensitive to how we talk to them.
5/25/11 12:05 AM
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LoveToChoke
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Don't confuse the dictators and religious zealots for the citizens of these countries.

The people of Iran are not your enemy. Neither are the people of Libya or Syria or Iraq. They suffer far more than the West does from islamic religious zealotry, terrorists and dictators.

I'm no admirer of Islamic culture (although they did contribute much to the West after the dark ages - I don't know where you get your history) but as the expression goes, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar".
5/25/11 12:18 AM
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the rooster
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Ok, fair enough. But they are at war with us. What was our answer to dictators and zealots in Japan and Germany? We defeated them.

We didn't reach out to them.

Do you reach out to klansmen or Fred phelps or skin heads?

Maybe the answer is "yes" but they don't run countries and aren't working to build nuclear weapons.
5/25/11 12:24 AM
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Grakman
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 The common people of Arab nations do seem to cheer a great deal when calamity hits the United States though. Who can forget the videos of the cheering Palestinians after 9/11?

I am under no illusion that the United States is some fantastic beacon of peace and alms giving, without a history of slavery and mass land-taking, and I do realize our historic use of arms to solve most problems that may really be none of our business; however, just because the U.S. isn't perfect does not mean that everyone else should get a free pass from the pointing out of their errors. It seems like the 'in thing' to do, if you will, to criticize the U.S. heavily while overlooking the troubles of the rest of the nations of the world, as though they do not have their own host of problems - civil rights for women and foreigners (let's not forget women cannot drive in many Muslim countries, and homosexuals are still put to death), lack of a free press or the right to demonstrate, the right of habeas corpus, and many others (many of which we are in danger of losing if we haven't already but that's another thread.)

I think what rooster may be getting at is that Obama is deferential to the people of foreign nations while not sparing the people of his own nation his condemnation - criticizing people for clinging to their Bibles and guns, not to mention his latest fiasco mocking people who want the government to secure it's borders, and telling another man that he needs to trade in his SUV for an electric car when he complained about gas prices. GW took a beating in the media and in public relations when gas prices were this high under his watch; he was even accused of conspiring with the oil companies to profit from the high prices. Yet, nary a peep out of our mainstream media criticizing Obama, and Obama has the temerity to criticize people who complain about it! 
5/25/11 12:34 AM
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the rooster
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well said Grak.

OR what about Joplin MO (very close to me) with 1,500 people missing!

Obama is joking around in Ireland, drinking a brew and promising that "we are with you" while promsing to be there by sunday.

Now compare that to Bush and New Orleans.
Bush was a racist! Where was the govt?!!? What an inept bumbler etc.

The people of joplin are not demanding the govt help them (and by the way more toradoes heading there tonight). They aren't blaming Obama's environmental policies for the weather! They aren't looking for him to come and "do something". They are quietly and humbly dealing with a horrific tragedy and "right wing nut jobs" aren't blaming Obama.

IF this was Bush, he would be guilty of seeding the clouds with weather changing chemicals.
5/25/11 12:37 AM
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Grakman
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^ The difference in how the presidents have been treated in these crises is amazing, isn't it? 
5/25/11 12:44 AM
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the rooster
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yep. consistency is a key for me. I actually respect Michael Moore for taking Obama to task on Libya because he was being consistent. So was Dennis Kuchinick when he said Obama needed congressional approval to go to war.

There is a lot I disagree about with those guys, but I appreciated that they treated the war the same whether it was a republican or democrat.

I wish all liberals were as consistent. The "code pink" were running around protesting netenyahu and have not so much as showed up to harass Obama at all.

5/25/11 2:58 AM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - yep. consistency is a key for me. I actually respect Michael Moore for taking Obama to task on Libya because he was being consistent. So was Dennis Kuchinick when he said Obama needed congressional approval to go to war.

There is a lot I disagree about with those guys, but I appreciated that they treated the war the same whether it was a republican or democrat.

I wish all liberals were as consistent. The "code pink" were running around protesting netenyahu and have not so much as showed up to harass Obama at all.



Wow, this is too much, even for you Rooster. You talk about Obama being "the worst president ever" and "single handedly and willfully driving this country to its demise" with his "socialism" and out of control spending.

When Bush took office, the economy was doing well, then we had a recession, which was not his fault. However, in the wake of that, he slashes taxes, emabarks on two wars, and signs a MAJOR expansion of entitlements in the form of medicare prescription coverage, all of which doubled the national debt from 5 to 10 trillion dollars (we haven't even seen the full effects of the medicare bill yet). Let's not forget that TARP was started under his admin. Yet, not a peep from you or other neo-cons. But, all of a sudden, it's all Obama's fault, when he is more or less continuing the same policies. You want consistency? Start by looking in the mirror. The truth is, there is no consistency with ideologues, be they on the left or right.
5/25/11 3:08 AM
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Joe Ray
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My point is that America has very important strategic imperatives in the middle east and throughout the Islamic world, therefore it is wise for every American president to show respect to Islam, and this was done by Bush and Reagan.

You appear ignorant of this, or at least you appear happy to give Republican presidents a pass on this while fawning outrage that Obama is doing the same.

And America may be religious, but it is still a secular country with a secular government. Religious authorities do not make America's laws and you are not ruled by clerics.

5/25/11 3:09 AM
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Joe Ray
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In the President’s Words: Respecting Islam

"Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation's ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace."
Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
December 5, 2002

"Over the past month, Muslims have fasted, taking no food or water during daylight hours, in order to refocus their minds on faith and redirect their hearts to charity. Muslims worldwide have stretched out a hand of mercy to those in need. Charity tables at which the poor can break their fast line the streets of cities and towns. And gifts of food and clothing and money are distributed to ensure that all share in God's abundance. Muslims often invite members of other families to their evening iftar meals, demonstrating a spirit of tolerance."
Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
December 5, 2002

"America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."
Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002

"Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in my country, and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind."
President's Eid al-Fitr Greeting to Muslims around the World
December 4, 2002

"Ours is a war not against a religion, not against the Muslim faith. But ours is a war against individuals who absolutely hate what America stands for, and hate the freedom of the Czech Republic. And therefore, we must work together to defend ourselves. And by remaining strong and united and tough, we'll prevail."
Press Conference by President Bush and President Havel of Czech Republic
Prague Castle, Prague, Czech Republic
November 20, 2002

"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America."
Remarks by President George W. Bush in a statement to reporters during a meeting with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
The Oval Office, Washington, DC
November 13, 2002

"We see in Islam a religion that traces its origins back to God's call on Abraham. We share your belief in God's justice, and your insistence on man's moral responsibility. We thank the many Muslim nations who stand with us against terror. Nations that are often victims of terror, themselves."
President Hosts Iftaar Dinner
Remarks by the President at Iftaar Dinner
State Dining Room

"Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion."
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002

"Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002

"All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith -- face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It's a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It's a faith based upon love, not hate."
President George W. Bush Holds Roundtable with Arab and Muslim-American Leaders
Afghanistan Embassy, Washington, D.C.
September 10, 2002

"If liberty can blossom in the rocky soil of the West Bank and Gaza, it will inspire millions of men and women around the globe who are equally weary of poverty and oppression, equally entitled to the benefits of democratic government. I have a hope for the people of Muslim countries. Your commitments to morality, and learning, and tolerance led to great historical achievements. And those values are alive in the Islamic world today. You have a rich culture, and you share the aspirations of men and women in every culture. Prosperity and freedom and dignity are not just American hopes, or Western hopes. They are universal, human hopes. And even in the violence and turmoil of the Middle East, America believes those hopes have the power to transform lives and nations."
President George W. Bush Calls for New Palestinian Leadership
The Rose Garden, Washington, D.C.
June 24, 2002

"When it comes to the common rights and needs of men and women, there is no clash of civilizations. The requirements of freedom apply fully to Africa and Latin America and the entire Islamic world. The peoples of the Islamic nations want and deserve the same freedoms and opportunities as people in every nation. And their governments should listen to their hopes."
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at the 2002 Graduation Exercise of the United States Military Academy
West Point, New York
June 1, 2002

"America rejects bigotry. We reject every act of hatred against people of Arab background or Muslim faith America values and welcomes peaceful people of all faiths -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and many others. Every faith is practiced and protected here, because we are one country. Every immigrant can be fully and equally American because we're one country. Race and color should not divide us, because America is one country."
President George W. Bush Promotes Compassionate Conservatism
Parkside Hall, San Jose, California
April 30, 2002

"We're taking action against evil people. Because this great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil. This is clearly a case of good versus evil, and make no mistake about it -- good will prevail."
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at a Town Hall Meeting with Citizens of Ontario
Ontario Convention Center, Ontario, California
January 5, 2002

"Eid is a time of joy, after a season of fasting and prayer and reflection. Each year, the end of Ramadan means celebration and thanksgiving for millions of Americans. And your joy during this season enriches the life of our great country. This year, Eid is celebrated at the same time as Hanukkah and Advent. So it's a good time for people of these great faiths, Islam, Judaism and Christianity, to remember how much we have in common: devotion to family, a commitment to care for those in need, a belief in God and His justice, and the hope for peace on earth."
Remarks by the President in Honor of Eid Al-Fitr
The Diplomatic Reception Room
December 17, 2001

5/25/11 3:32 AM
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Joe Ray
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And there is a lot more where that came from.

All uttered by avowedly Christian president, George W Bush.

I wonder if rooster was taking to the streets demanding action be taken against Bush for submitting to Islam in such a humiliating way.
5/25/11 8:42 AM
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Grakman
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Just an FYI, I can't speak for rooster but generally speaking a dislike of Obama does not necessarily mean one supports GW. I know I don't. And the point about consistency, at least from my post that rooster referred to, was the way the media treats these two presidents so differently. Fox may be in the back pocket of the Republicans but the Democrats have everyone else. Phone Post
5/25/11 12:14 PM
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inlikeflynn
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What would be nice, and perhaps more productive, is if as a country, we would stop looking at politics like a football game, quit demonizing the opposition, and realize that both sides have good, well-intentioned people who differ on the best way to solve our problems. Maybe then we might actually be able to reach a compromise and get something done.

Then again, the whole process might just be hopelessly corrupted and it might not matter what we do at this point. LOL.
5/25/11 1:01 PM
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Joe Ray
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Grakman - Just an FYI, I can't speak for rooster but generally speaking a dislike of Obama does not necessarily mean one supports GW. I know I don't. And the point about consistency, at least from my post that rooster referred to, was the way the media treats these two presidents so differently. Fox may be in the back pocket of the Republicans but the Democrats have everyone else. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Of course not. But rooster seems to believe a US president should act in the manner of a divisive sectarian religious leader and also seems to believe that the habit of US presidents praising Islam as a religous creed suddenly began with Barack Obama.

The first notion is ridiculous. The second is ignorant
5/26/11 3:38 AM
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per
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LoveToChoke - As far as where do you draw the line - essentially you are saying that if you are poor (for whatever reason, be it bad luck, cannot pay medical bills, or just dumb) you should not expect society to care for you. Is that really a society that you want to live in?

What I don't understand is why people think it is okay for private business to profit from people's ill-health. There is such an obvious conflict of interest between a business trying to maximize its profit and the welfare of its members.

For all the talk of an egalitarian society, your country is heartless as can be seen by Rooster's posts and others on this site.



I normally don't comment on domestic US politics, but this is an issue that governments grapple with in the whole world (except in a few places where they don't give a rats ass about the well-being of their people).

How good must life be? How good can it be?

Since resources and money are not endless, it must always be distributed. You need to make priorities, you need to try to do as much as possible with the resources at hand. It would be nice is a huge amount of a country's budgets went to benefits for the poor and unemplyed. But the money must come from somewhere, and such an action can in just a year contribute to a en economy cooling down as the state has less money to invest. So more people become unemployed and need benefits. Less tax money flows in, and even less money can be invested. Infrastructure declines and the corporate climate worsens, making even more people unemployed and even less tax money comes in.

A state is an entity similar to a human, as a human you can give all your resources away to other humans that need them, but you will shortly die of malnutrition, and then you can no longer give anything away and no longer do your good deeds.


The united states cannot keep on improving these things forever, the debts are astronomical now. As of now, it is probably time to put focus on surviving and improving the economic situation and that money has to be taken from everybody and everything, it has happened before in history and it must happen now in the US.

There is little point in having ideals but no means to apply these ideals, you know?


Oh, and about the health industry: It is okay because it works. With a free market and competition the companies will always compete in offering what people need at a low price and value for money, keeping the economy running while they do it. The alternative must be something like communism and history has shown us several times that it is not a good way at all to create well-being and a good society.
5/26/11 5:56 AM
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LoveToChoke
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Per, I was with you on the need to be pragmatic, but when you suggest that universal healthcare is akin to communism you lost me. If private health insurance is so much more competitive, then why does healthcare in the U.S. cost double per person vs. comparable healthcare in other western countries with universal healthcare (i.e govt run) ? Phone Post
5/26/11 5:58 AM
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LoveToChoke
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You also ignore the conflict between the need of the company to make profit and the needs of the patient. People get denied treatment or coverage all the time in the U.S. because of profit motive. Phone Post

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