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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Teaching newaza to judoka


5/20/11 1:31 PM
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aaronlapoi
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I am a BJJ black belt who started training judo about a year ago. Some days my judo instructor has me teach newaza. Here's my question. Should I teach newaza like I would teach BJJ or should I teach newaza with Shia rules in mind (e.g., quick standups, limited stalling on ground).
5/20/11 1:52 PM
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khd29
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Not sure what you meant but just teach newaza. Judoka know the rules in shiai.

My .02
5/20/11 4:11 PM
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judo man
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It depends on what your instructor wants. If its aimed at competition it would have to be under those rules.
5/21/11 9:41 AM
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judoblackbelt
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When I teach newaza to lower rank belts I do it when uke is in turtle and when uke is flat. I show them how to attack the turtle from the front, side and rear. I have 3/4 good attacks when uke is flat. I teach very little when I am in bottom guard. Some sweeps and arm bars. I am always aware of the time element since that is what has been ingrained in me. Usually the instructor will tell what to demonstrate. If it bottom guard stuff he usually has our BJJ purple belt demonstrate. You should teach newaza with pins in mind first, and submissions next. If your BJJ does this then ok.
5/21/11 11:50 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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If it's me, then I'm going to teach the bjj way re: starting people off with movement drills(ie: shrimping, upa, etc) and escapes from basic positions and how to pass the guard. Why? Because even though time on the ground is a factor in shiai, too many people resort to turtling when in trouble and/or feigning attacks rather than risk getting caught in a holddown for the simple reason that they have no faith in their ability to escape and/or scramble back to their feet without the assistance of "matte". So teach and drill the basics just like you normally would bjj, and when your people get to an acceptable comfort level then start making use of the scrambling drills and positional randori common to judo re: back to backs, 30 second escape rounds, 30 second osaekomi rounds, etc.

From there, begin to reintroduce the basic positions, this time offensively, along with the basic collar chokes, ude-garami, and juji-gatame, etc. But be sure and take advantage(if possible) of the resources you have at your disposal re: breakdowns/turnovers and developing the heavy holddowns that judo is known for when going over each position. No sense in teach someone the intricacies of the mount if your people can't turn the turtle into osaekomi, thus giving themselves the time needed to establish/maintain position and work towards submission. And again, you teach and drill techniques until your people gain confidence, then add in the scrambling and positional randori like you did before. Only now, throw in submission-specific drills/rounds as well. Meaning, 30 seconds to get to _____ holddown, and rounds that don't end until you win by _____ submission. Those kinds of drills and sparring are good for developing speed, intensity, and solid setups against a partner/opponent who knows what's coming. But more than anything, at this stage my focus would be on ensuring that my people develop crushing holddowns and can swim through positions at will, especially the yoko/kami shiho combinations. Meaning, regardless of the venue, the last thing I want for myself is to get trapped in my opponent's half guard, only to blink and see that now I'm stuck in full guard, having surrendered whatever dominant position I had, so I work damn hard to give my opponent what I call the "windshield wiper" experience re: moving from ushiro/yoko-shiho to kami-shiho to ushiro/yoko-shiho as often(and uncomfortably) as needed to a) score ippon, b) move to mount/rear mount, or c) capitalize on any submissions that open up in the transitions/scrambles.

What's more, though others may disagree and will be able to offer legitimate reasons as to why, I am *not* a big fan of attacking the turtle the judo way re: rolling/stepover submissions and turnovers. Sure, they work, and competitors like Jimmy Pedro, Flavio Canto, and our own judo forum celebrity, Ronda Rousey ;), are damn good at them. But in my mind, I'd rather not risk giving up dominant position(ie: taking the back with hooks in) for what amounts to a scramble scenario where I have nothing (positionally) to fall back on if my attack fails, except an opponent who turtles until matte is called. So as I said before, I stress breakdowns/turnovers into osaekomi positions and taking the back to work higher percentage submissions(and hopefully get 'continuous action' time allowances).





Hope that helps.
5/21/11 7:03 PM
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judoblackbelt
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What is surprising is the judo guys all have different opinions. So I guess do it your way or what the instructor asks you to teach. See how the students pick it up.
5/21/11 8:30 PM
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aaronlapoi
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Thanks for the feedback guys!
5/22/11 9:10 AM
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judoblackbelt
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I forgot to add that what I teach has been taught to me by world class judo players thru seminars/video of seminars from friends. Some of our top US players like Travis Stevens, Kyla Harrison, Mike Eldred, Jacob Larsen, Aaron Cohen, Kenny Hashimoto have excellent ground games.
5/23/11 9:36 PM
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Empire
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be different.

he may want you, a bjj bb, to teach your style of groundwork because he's truly interested in a different viewpoint, style, mindset, etc.

why do the same stuff?

some questions:
1) is this a recreational group/club or do they compete?
2) have you asked the instructor what they want?
6/17/11 12:17 PM
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Bently
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The first thing is to ask the head instructor what he wants. If he has no preference, then do them a favor and teach basics/fundamentals as you would in BJJ, although of course with the idea that osaekomi are usually taught first to beginners in Judo (if the students are beginners..that's where asking the coach what he wants comes in).

All the turtle/pancake attacks in the world are of no use if you can't do the basics well.

I've been teaching Judo 20+ years and I although I do teach simple turnovers against turtles as part of teaching ne waza, I'm much more concerned with long term development than quick success in shiai.

Most judoka I see don't even shrimp correctly. The kids don't even know what it's for.

Ben
6/17/11 4:14 PM
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Atomic
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Watching competitions on the local level over the years and rolling with a local club, the time to stand up has been delayed more compared to say, 16 years back.

Teach it like you would in BJJ. It is a different mentality at times and if the judoka are good, they will figure out how to apply the moves to the situation.
6/17/11 5:56 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Each student has to develope attacks and setups that they can execute in the time judo allows. The basic postions from this are turtle, prone (flat face down), half guard and guard. Most judokas do not attack when they are in top guard. They stall and get the restart. We also drill the 10 pin sequence so you develope transition when uke moves to escape to a neutral/advantage postion. We also drill after mock throw attempts attacking immediately after the throw. Example in a mock seionage throw, figure four the sleeve hand arm or hook it at the elbow and tie it up for a pin attempt.
6/20/11 6:52 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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there is the totality of newaza and then there is the mainly transition game of newaza seen in competitive judo.

just like there is the totality of tachiwaza and then the fact that what you do in bjj doesnt matter as it is all only worth 2 points at best.

in other words, you dont decide not to teach good technique because of rules. you teach good technique and when they are good at it then you teach them how to apply it within the given rulesets of various sports.

technique is technique. rules are rules.

6/20/11 8:54 PM
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aaronlapoi
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JoshuaResnick - there is the totality of newaza and then there is the mainly transition game of newaza seen in competitive judo.

just like there is the totality of tachiwaza and then the fact that what you do in bjj doesnt matter as it is all only worth 2 points at best.

in other words, you dont decide not to teach good technique because of rules. you teach good technique and when they are good at it then you teach them how to apply it within the given rulesets of various sports.

technique is technique. rules are rules.



Great advice.
6/21/11 9:31 PM
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Empire
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resnick has ipponed the fuck out of your question aaron.
6/21/11 10:50 PM
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judom
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aaronlapoi,

if I am to train with a newaza specialist, then I would want to address the points that I find weak in my game. I know what those points are because I've done years of randori. I am not sure everyone can point to those.

In general, if I taught a seminar I would do:

1 way to open the closed guard
1 way to pass the guard _without_ allowing uke to turtle
1 sweep from the bottom
1 way to prevent someone passing your guard.

The problem with guard passing in Judo is that you can get pinned and lose the match so its important not to get passed and conversely its important to know how to pass _without_ allowing someone to turn to the turtle.

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