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HolyGround >> Must U Be Perfectly Righteous To Enter Heaven?


5/22/11 10:33 AM
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Workman
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1. Is God Just

2a. Will all people be judged?

2a. What will God judge people on?

4. Can God be both just and the justifier of ungodly men?

Please indicate and qualify whether you are providing opinion, and or thoughts.

Scriptural support is always welcomed!
5/22/11 10:35 AM
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Workman
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My apologies; question 4 should obviously be question 3. I'm still learning to count!
5/22/11 11:52 AM
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TheStewedOwl
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Re #4, if God judges that someone is righteous from His superior vantage point, who is anyone else to say that the judged is ungodly?
5/22/11 9:25 PM
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5pointer
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of course God is just - he will punish sin, if someone murdered your love one you would expect justice..

i do not believe all ppl will be judged... if christ took the penalty for the sin of the believer then another judgement of the believer would be double jeopardy correct? the sins of his children have already been judged, placed on christ... the unbeliever will however be judged..

God will judge the unbeliever on their works... all will burn up.

God is both just and justifier - he is gives justice to the guilty and for the redeemed he has justified.

my opinions so far... they often change tho : )


5/22/11 10:01 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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What do you guys think of this scripture?


1 John 2 (New Living Translation)

1 John 2

 1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. 2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

 3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

A New Commandment

 7 Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment for you; rather it is an old one you have had from the very beginning. This old commandment—to love one another—is the same message you heard before. 8 Yet it is also new. Jesus lived the truth of this commandment, and you also are living it. For the darkness is disappearing, and the true light is already shining.
 9 If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates a Christian brother or sister,[a] that person is still living in darkness. 10 Anyone who loves another brother or sister[b] is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 11 But anyone who hates another brother or sister is still living and walking in darkness. Such a person does not know the way to go, having been blinded by the darkness.

 12 I am writing to you who are God’s children
      because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.[c]
 13 I am writing to you who are mature in the faith[d]
      because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning.
   I am writing to you who are young in the faith
      because you have won your battle with the evil one.
 14 I have written to you who are God’s children
      because you know the Father.
   I have written to you who are mature in the faith
      because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning.
   I have written to you who are young in the faith
      because you are strong.
   God’s word lives in your hearts,
      and you have won your battle with the evil one.

Do Not Love This World

 15 Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 16 For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. 17 And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.
Warning about Antichrists

 18 Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come. 19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.
 20 But you are not like that, for the Holy One has given you his Spirit,[e] and all of you know the truth. 21 So I am writing to you not because you don’t know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. 22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ.[f] Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.[g] 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 24 So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us.

 26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit,[h] and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit[i] teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

Living as Children of God

 28 And now, dear children, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when he returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from him in shame.
 29 Since we know that Christ is righteous, we also know that all who do what is right are God’s children.

5/23/11 2:00 AM
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Workman
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TigerDriver: "1. Is God Just"

Yes. The world is perfect.

Workman: Agreed! God is just.

However, why do you say that the worls is perfect? Or was that sarcasm?
5/23/11 2:08 AM
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Workman
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TheStewedOwl: Re #4, if God judges that someone is righteous from His superior vantage point, who is anyone else to say that the judged is ungodly?

Workman: That's a fantastic question.

While I certainly wouldn't make a habit of going around and telling everyone that they are ungodly, to answer your question; it is God's word that tells us that we are ungodly.

Romans 4:5

"But to him that worth not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

5/23/11 2:27 AM
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Workman
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5pointer: of course God is just - he will punish sin, if someone murdered your love one you would expect justice..

i do not believe all ppl will be judged... if christ took the penalty for the sin of the believer then another judgement of the believer would be double jeopardy correct? the sins of his children have already been judged, placed on christ... the unbeliever will however be judged..

Workman: 5pointer, your about explanation is both Logical and Biblical.

5pointer: God will judge the unbeliever on their works... all will burn up.

Workman: Yes 5pointer, "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained......" (Acts 17:31)

5pointer: God is both just and justifier - he is gives justice to the guilty and for the redeemed he has justified.

Workman: Yes, God is both just and the justifier of those who are guilty before the law.

However, maybe I didn't quite articulate the inherent problem with being just and a justifier.

So, while we both agree that God is just and a justifier, my question is; how can God be just and merciful to justify at the same time, and for the same situation?

5pointer: my opinions so far... they often change tho : )

Workman: I disagree, much of what you stated here can be supported by scriptures, and God's word never changes.

Nicely done and continue to hold tight to sound doctrine!
5/23/11 2:36 AM
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Workman
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Juijitsuboxer, personally, I love these passages in 1 John 2:1-29.

As well, I think these Scriptures are highly relevant to this thread.

However, I'd love to hear your thoughts why you felt led to share it, as well as, what struck you about it regarding the topic?

5/23/11 11:32 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Workman - Juijitsuboxer, personally, I love these passages in 1 John 2:1-29.

As well, I think these Scriptures are highly relevant to this thread.

However, I'd love to hear your thoughts why you felt led to share it, as well as, what struck you about it regarding the topic?


I just thought it was relevant to the question. It seems to say living righteously is important.



3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.



5/23/11 11:59 AM
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prof
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Sorry folks, but when looking at statements by the religious there is always the "Poe's Law" problem (look it up), even for non-creationists.

For those who state the world is "perfect"...were you serious?

Prof.
5/23/11 1:14 PM
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the rooster
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Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus monolithically takes the religious leaders of the truth and tells the audience, you righteousness must exceed their's. wow! I'd look at these priest, temple workers, scribes, doctors of the law, and be thinking...now way! How then can I be saved!

But we then see that the New Birth puts His regiteousness on us. We are made "right" in His eyes, by "putting on Christ".

It's not the works of the law that make us right, but putting on Him who fufilled the law.
5/23/11 1:21 PM
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Workman
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Juijitsuboxer: just thought it was relevant to the question. It seems to say living righteously is important.

3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

Workman: Yes, Juijitsuboxer, I do agree that the Scriptures you quoted are relevant.

In fact, the passages that you quoted would seem to draw a correlation between obedience to God's commandments, and righteousness.

This raises a couple of questions:

1) Juijitsuboxer, do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on what commandments are being referred to here?

2) What is the means in which a person becomes righteous?

Thanks for taking part in this dialogue.
5/23/11 1:26 PM
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Workman
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prof: Sorry folks, but when looking at statements by the religious there is always the "Poe's Law" problem (look it up), even for non-creationists.

Workman: Is your "Poe's Law" suggestion directed at the questions of the thread, or was it directed at TigerDriver's statement?

prof: For those who state the world is "perfect"...were you serious?

Workman: I am wondering the same thing.
5/23/11 2:11 PM
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Workman
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the rooster: Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus monolithically takes the religious leaders of the truth and tells the audience, you righteousness must exceed their's. wow! I'd look at these priest, temple workers, scribes, doctors of the law, and be thinking...now way! How then can I be saved!

But we then see that the New Birth puts His regiteousness on us. We are made "right" in His eyes, by "putting on Christ".

It's not the works of the law that make us right, but putting on Him who fufilled the law.

Workman: Well stated rooster!

In the passage you cited, Christ Jesus is setting the requirement for admission into the kingdom of heaven for eternal life.

What does God require of you and me to enter into the kingdom of heaven?

I think that your Scriptural quote provides a clear and unmistakeable answer.

Christ Jesus came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather, He came to fulfil them (Matthew 5:17-19).

Matthew 5:20 makes it clear that if our righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, then we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We can also infer from this passage that one can be assured of entrance into the kingdom of heaven if they meet the requirement set forth in Matthew 5:20.

Keep in mind here that Christ was being accused here of being a law breaker.

The Pharisees misunderstood Jesus who came to put an end to the Old Covenant, in order to usher in the New.

The Pharisees thought that the Old Covenant was eternal, and they thought that their salvation was conditioned upon their keeping it, and then comes along Christ who tells them that they'd be condemned by their works of the law, which is consistent with what Paul stated in Romans 3:20.

So, the backdrop here in Matthew 5, is that we have a conflict between the self righteousness of the Pharisees, versus that of the righteousness that exceeds.

And as you explained rooster, we find out that, the righteous that exceeds is found in none other than that of our Lord and Saviour, Christ Jesus (Acts 17:31).

Jeremiah 23:6

"In his day Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."



5/23/11 2:21 PM
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Grakman
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 Poe's Law states:[1]
Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.

Poe's Law is an axiom suggesting that it's difficult to distinguish between parodies of religious fundamentalism (or, more generally, parodies of any crackpot or extremist belief) and genuine proponents of religious fundamentalism, since they both seem equally insane. Conversely, real fundamentalism can easily be mistaken for a parody of fundamentalism. For example, some conservatives consider noted homophobe Fred Phelps to be so over-the-top that they argue he's a "deep cover liberal" trying to discredit more mainstream homophobes.

5/23/11 2:29 PM
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Grakman
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 "... since they both seem equally insane." 

Classy.

Sort of like the correlation between Asperger's and atheism, wouldn't you say? 
5/23/11 2:37 PM
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the rooster
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Workman - the rooster: Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus monolithically takes the religious leaders of the truth and tells the audience, you righteousness must exceed their's. wow! I'd look at these priest, temple workers, scribes, doctors of the law, and be thinking...now way! How then can I be saved!

But we then see that the New Birth puts His regiteousness on us. We are made "right" in His eyes, by "putting on Christ".

It's not the works of the law that make us right, but putting on Him who fufilled the law.

Workman: Well stated rooster!

In the passage you cited, Christ Jesus is setting the requirement for admission into the kingdom of heaven for eternal life.

What does God require of you and me to enter into the kingdom of heaven?

I think that your Scriptural quote provides a clear and unmistakeable answer.

Christ Jesus came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather, He came to fulfil them (Matthew 5:17-19).

Matthew 5:20 makes it clear that if our righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, then we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We can also infer from this passage that one can be assured of entrance into the kingdom of heaven if they meet the requirement set forth in Matthew 5:20.

Keep in mind here that Christ was being accused here of being a law breaker.

The Pharisees misunderstood Jesus who came to put an end to the Old Covenant, in order to usher in the New.

The Pharisees thought that the Old Covenant was eternal, and they thought that their salvation was conditioned upon their keeping it, and then comes along Christ who tells them that they'd be condemned by their works of the law, which is consistent with what Paul stated in Romans 3:20.

So, the backdrop here in Matthew 5, is that we have a conflict between the self righteousness of the Pharisees, versus that of the righteousness that exceeds.

And as you explained rooster, we find out that, the righteous that exceeds is found in none other than that of our Lord and Saviour, Christ Jesus (Acts 17:31).

Jeremiah 23:6

"In his day Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."





amen and amen.

That's why I'm glad it's not reliant on my reighteousness for my reighteousness is as FILTHY RAGS.
5/23/11 2:46 PM
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Grakman
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There is some small irony here in that Workman and rooster agree with each other on this topic, but if I'm not mistaken Workman would actually label rooster as outside the bounds of salvation because he does not believe in the Trinity.

Am I wrong in this assumption, Workman? 
5/23/11 2:53 PM
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Workman
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the rooster: That's why I'm glad it's not reliant on my reighteousness for my reighteousness is as FILTHY RAGS.

Workman: Yup, since Acts 17:31 tells us that sinful man will be judged in righteousness, and since Isaiah 64:6 (as quoted by yourself) declares that we don't have any righteousness of our own, this would seem to pose a major problem for those seeking entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

And by the way, thanks for the sobering, yet, pertinent Scriptural reference in Isaiah.
5/23/11 3:10 PM
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Workman
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POINT 1

Grakman, though it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I do appreciate your taking the time to expound on "Poe's Law".

POINT 2

Grakman: There is some small irony here in that Workman and rooster agree with each other on this topic, but if I'm not mistaken Workman would actually label rooster as outside the bounds of salvation because he does not believe in the Trinity.

Am I wrong in this assumption, Workman?

Workman: Grakman, isn't this a classic attempt to divide and conquer?

Since your question is not at all relevant to the thread topic, I will provide a brief answer, as I do not want to risk the main thread being hijacked.

Yes, Grakman, your assumption is incorrect, as the Scriptures do not explicitly state that a person must believe in the concept / doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved.

I will gladly expound in the appropriate forum.

POINT 3

Grakman, now that you've taken the opportunity to express your general comments, and or, concerns, I was wondering if you were planning to participate in the main discussion here?

Please feel free to answer any of the thread questions; whether you agree, disagree, and you can even add a relating passage, as others here have done.

Thanks in advance,

Workman

5/23/11 3:24 PM
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yusul
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hey grakman, it's always fun they way you seem to like to stir the pot.

workman is a trinitarian, but if i'm not mistaken, it was you on another thread that had mistaken him for being a modalist until ridge corrected you.

people can agree on many points of scripture, but now that i have some time today, i'm going to respond to rooster's point from a few weeks ago back on that thread about modalism.

i think rooster is a trinitarian by definition but actually doesn't realize it because he assumes believing in the trinity is polytheistic. but i will address that in the other thread.

but so far, i think what rooster believes overall is closer to what workman and myself believe, than to you or reverent john, etc.
5/23/11 3:27 PM
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the rooster
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My spelling was bad on righteousness...sorry

Grak, I believe in One God manifest as Father in creation, Son in creation and Spirit in redemption.

One God, manifest in 3 primary roles for our salvation (though the roles, authorities, powers, manifestations of our Lord are infinite I should guess).
5/23/11 3:34 PM
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the rooster
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I can move this as well, but I just want to say that I have met trinitarians who believed exactly as I do. That Jesus Christ is the I AM. I have met others who were blatant tritheist.

There seems to be a distinction between the actual development and multiple expositions by early theologians and what many believe and call the trinity.

I have an AOG pastor who believes the exact same thing I do concerning the godhead. The difference is he calls it trinitarianism and I call it "oneness" :-)
5/23/11 3:39 PM
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Workman
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Hey all, for those interested, I have created another thread, which specifically deals with this question on the 'nature of God'.

How would you all feel about moving this important and interesting discussion over there?

Much appreciated,

Workman

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