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HolyGround >> Must U Be Perfectly Righteous To Enter Heaven?


5/23/11 3:44 PM
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the rooster
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sounds great!
5/23/11 4:02 PM
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yusul
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rooster, i responded on 'my interpretation of Trinity' thread. btw, i enjoy our discussions, whatever the outcome. i'd be interested to hear what you think of my analogy.
5/23/11 5:05 PM
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Grakman
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 yusul,
I'd have to go back and check, but I don't think it was me that said Workman was a modalist. I rarely ever use such terminology in my posts. I may have implied it or described it without using the term, but I don't remember.

As for stirring the pot, and what did Worman say, dividing and conquering? I think both of you give me too much credit. :-)  Workman said that a person who does not believe in the Trinity can be saved so I stand corrected anyway.
5/23/11 5:08 PM
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Grakman
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 As Workman continues to express enthusiasm for keeping a thread on topic, and as I have intruded on the thread without answering his questions, I will do so now:

1. Is God Just - Yes

2a. Will all people be judged? - Yes

2a. What will God judge people on? - Deeds

4. Can God be both just and the justifier of ungodly men? - Yes

 
5/23/11 5:23 PM
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prof
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Grakman -  "... since they both seem equally insane." 

Classy.


And true. It's literally difficult to parody religious fundamentalism. As if this week's events haven't made that clear.

Grakman -

Sort of like the correlation between Education and atheism, wouldn't you say? 


Fixed for you ;-)

Prof.


5/23/11 5:58 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: I'd have to go back and check, but I don't think it was me that said Workman was a modalist. I rarely ever use such terminology in my posts. I may have implied it or described it without using the term, but I don't remember.

Workman: I believe the statement in question can be found on the thread; "My theology for Josh."

Grakman: As for stirring the pot, and what did Worman say, dividing and conquering? I think both of you give me too much credit. :-)

Workman: Grakman, I do apologize for questioning your motivation for asking me a question, which you assumed would contradict that of rooster's belief, and in doing so, ensuring that a wedge be created between he and I.

However, I do hope that you can understand, since so far you have neglected to engage me in a discussion that is directly related to the topic at hand.

Though, I am happy to see that you have now come around, as indicated by your other comment.

Grakman: Workman said that a person who does not believe in the Trinity can be saved so I stand corrected anyway.

Workman: Grakman, sorry if it seems that I am being nit-picky here, but this is what I actually stated to you in response to your question:

"the Scriptures do not explicitly state that a person must believe in the concept / doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved."
5/23/11 6:25 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: As Workman continues to express enthusiasm for keeping a thread on topic, and as I have intruded on the thread without answering his questions, I will do so now:

Workman: Though it took you a while, much kudos for responding to all 4. And might I add that, you were the only one who has directly answered these 4 questions so far.

Grakman: 1. Is God Just - Yes

Workman: Agreed!

Grakman: 2a. Will all people be judged? - Yes

Workman: Is there any distinction within these people that you say will be judged? Or do you believe that all people will be judged at the same time and in the same way?

Grakman: 2a. What will God judge people on? - Deeds

Workman: What do you mean? Do you have a passage that explains it?

Grakman: 4. Can God be both just and the justifier of ungodly men? - Yes

Workman: Can you explain how God can remain Just, while at the same time justifying the ungodly?

In other words, if God is Just, how can He be Merciful in the same situation, and at the same time?

Workman: Grakman, thank you for taking part in this thread and sharing your thoughts, and or, beliefs.

For example; most people who receive legitimate parking / or speeding tickets never scream for the need of justice, but they'd certainly ask for mercy in the way of a ticket that either gets reduced or torn apart by the dispenser of the ticket infraction.

So, in this scenario, we can see that the ticket agent cannot be both Just and Merciful at the same time, and for the same situation, as both these terms are incongruous with each other.

This is the basis for my question; how can God be Just while justifying the ungodly?
5/23/11 6:48 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Somebody posted an article a while back where the author argued that God is not just, but rather merciful in that He shows grace and mercy to those who don't deserve it. Anyone remember that?
5/23/11 7:11 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 05/23/11 7:53 PM
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Workman:
I reviewed the "My Theology for Josh" thread. I did not call you a 'modalist.' Others on the thread accused you of being 'rooster,' and I said that you were not likely to be rooster, 'even if you were non-Trinitarian,' the intended implication that even if you had said you were (explicitly) non-Trinitarian, I had other reasons to believe you were not, indeed, the rooster.

There is an old fundamentalist tale describes how God is both mercificul and just, perhaps you have heard of it? The son of a judge is issued a speeding ticket. The son appears in the judge's courtroom and the judge, based on the evidence before him, finds his son guilty of speeding and orders him to pay a fine. Then the judge steps off the bench, takes of his robe, walks over to the court clerk and pays the fine himself. 

Jesus says we must forgive others in order for our father to forgive us. He says that if we do not help the 'least of these' we will be sent away, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In other parables Jesus teaches us that we reap what we sow, we earn our wages and so on. Paul teaches us that every man's works will be judged, but the man himself will be saved 'as if through fire.' Paul encourages us to run and finish the race in order to win crowns in heaven. Peter tells us that baptism saves us, not through the washing away of the filth of the flesh, but through the answer of a good conscience towards God (baptism is a deed is it not?) 

Faith without works is dead.

 
5/23/11 8:01 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: I reviewed the "My Theology for Josh" thread. I did not call you a 'modalist.'

Workman: I never suggested that you did, I was merely pointing out the thread in which Yusul was referring to.

That said, thank you for clarifying this Grakman.

Grakman: There is an old fundamentalist story tale describes how God is both mercificul and just, perhaps you have heard of it? The son of a judge is issued a speeding ticket. The son appears in the judge's courtroom and the judge, based on the evidence before him, finds his son guilty of speeding and orders him to pay a fine. Then the judge steps off the bench, takes of his robe, walks over to the court clerk and pays the fine himself.

Workman: Is the analogy you've provided here synonymous with the way in which God is Just and Merciful?

In other words, in reference to your analogy; are you saying that all people, being sinners, deserve punishment; but because of God's Mercy, He will Justify the ungodly through payment of His own?

Grakman: Jesus says we must forgive others in order for our father to forgive us. He says that if we do not help the 'least of these' we will be sent away, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In other parables Jesus teaches us that we reap what we sow, we earn our wages and so on. Paul teaches us that every man's works will be judged, but the man himself will be saved 'as if through fire.' Paul encourages us to run and finish the race in order to win crowns in heaven. Peter tells us that baptism saves us, not through the washing away of the filth of the flesh, but through the answer of a good conscience towards God (baptism is a deed is it not?)

Workman:

Grakman, are you saying the following;

1) That a person is saved based on their ability to forgive others?

2) That a person is saved based on their ability to help the least?

3) That a person is saved based on their ability to run and finish the race?

4) That a person is saved based on their decision to receive water baptism?

5) What passage refers to earning our wages, and does that equate to earning salvation?

6) Since you say that a person will be judged by their works, does this mean that their being granted salvation is conditioned upon the quality and quantity of 'good deeds'?

Yes Grakman, baptism is a deed.

And yes, faith without works is dead, but does this translate into the necessity for 'good works' in order to be saved?
5/23/11 8:09 PM
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Grakman
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 Workman:
Yes, the tale is analogous to God's justification of the ungodly through his mercy (payment.)

Brother, your initial questions did not ask what one must do to be saved, nor did it ask from what one is actually saved. Your questions asked if we are judged. As you like to keep threads on topic, would you like to save the question about salvation for another thread and keep this one focused on judgment, or do you want me to answer your questions about salvation?   
5/23/11 8:22 PM
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yusul
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grakman, apologies for saying you said modalist. i don't like to mischaracterize what other people say and i feel accuracy is important.
5/23/11 8:30 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: Yes, the tale is analogous to God's justification of the ungodly through his mercy (payment.)

Workman: Thank you and I Agree!

May we dive into this a little deeper?

How does God's mercy payment allow people to become righteous, or, proclaimed innocent?

Grakman: Brother, your initial questions did not ask what one must do to be saved, nor did it ask from what one is actually saved. Your questions asked if we are judged.

Workman: Sincerely, I disagree, I didn't have to say it. By definition, the very title of the thread (Must You Be Perfectly Righteous To Enter Heaven) more than implies it.

Do you not agree that a person need a perfect righteousness to enter into the kingdom of heaven?

If you do, then the next question becomes; what must a person do to obtain the righteousness needed, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Grakman: As you like to keep threads on topic, would you like to save the question about salvation for another thread and keep this one focused on judgment, or do you want me to answer your questions about salvation?

Workman: I hope my above response has cleared this up. And secondly, it seemed your statements were phrased in a way to intimate that salvation (or entering the kingdom of heaven) was conditional upon these doings on the part of man (such as water baptism).

So, naturally, I thought I'd ask you what is meant by your statements in reference to salvation.
5/23/11 8:57 PM
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Grakman
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yusul - grakman, apologies for saying you said modalist. i don't like to mischaracterize what other people say and i feel accuracy is important.

 No worries at all, I can see why there was some confusion. Thanks for the apology though, much appreciated.
5/23/11 9:03 PM
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Grakman
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Workman,
In your view, Is the sole purpose of salvation to escape judgment? I think it would help also if you clarify what you mean by judgment, i.e. do you mean escape from eternal torment, annihalation, etc, or are you referring to the Great White Throne judgment or some other? 

5/23/11 11:09 PM
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Workman
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Grakman: In your view, Is the sole purpose of salvation to escape judgment?

Workman: No, escaping judgment is a result of salvation, in that a saved person will come to recognition that they deserve the God's prescribed penalty of death (Romans 6:23), to their unrighteousness and transgressions of the law.

However, it is by God's great love (and thank God that He loved us first), and by His mercy, and by His grace, that He should do for us, and in us, what no ordinary, deaf and blind man, in love with darkness, could do for himself; He gave us a new heart to receive salvation because we love God, and want to return to Him; joined in union for all eternity.

Grakman: I think it would help also if you clarify what you mean by judgment, i.e. do you mean escape from eternal torment, annihalation, etc, or are you referring to the Great White Throne judgment or some other?

Workman: Well, Grakman, the Bible refers to 2 types of death; physical and spiritual.

I am referring to both, in that the body without God's Spirit results in death. And from the stand point of time, I am referring to a permanent-eternal death.

And yes, the Great White Throne Judgment certainly will cast the unrighteous into the permanent abode for the fallen angels, and as well the countless humans who have rejected God's gift of mercy and grace.

However, prior to the final judgment, though many would disagree, the Bible would seem to establish that there is currently a temporary holding place for those who died without Christ.
5/24/11 9:32 AM
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Grakman
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Workman,
What is the purpose of salvation? You said it is not to escape judgment but is a result of salvation. So what is the purpose of salvation?  

If Christians are freed from judgment, to what is Paul referring when he says that our works will be tested, but the man himself will be saved as through fire? Paul says that if we continue to sin, we have an advocate with the Father to plead our case. What is the point of an advocate if we do not face any judgment as believers? Further, we are taught that believers will be rewarded for their works with various crowns. How can one determine what crowns one wins if our works are not judged? 

On a side note, in your last post it seems as though you hold to both annhilationism and eternal fiery hell. What is your view of the eternal state of a person who does not believe in Jesus Christ? 
5/25/11 12:49 AM
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Workman
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Grakman: What is the purpose of salvation? You said it is not to escape judgment but is a result of salvation. So what is the purpose of salvation?

Workman: Since, in the garden, Adam and his defendants became alienated and disfellowshipped from God; the purpose of Salvation is to bring sinners back into a spiritual union and fellowship with God, through Christ.

Grakman: If Christians are freed from judgment, to what is Paul referring when he says that our works will be tested, but the man himself will be saved as through fire?

Workman: The passages you speak of in Corinthians deals with those in a Saved position. And notice that while it focuses on the works of these folks, at no point does it infer that Salvation is conditioned upon works.

In fact, the opposite is true, as it alludes to dead works being burned, but there is no loss of Salvation.

Grakman: Paul says that if we continue to sin, we have an advocate with the Father to plead our case. What is the point of an advocate if we do not face any judgment as believers?

Workman: As you may know, an advocate is similar to a lawyer.

Essentially, Christ Jesus intercedes on behalf of all those who have believed in His gospel of salvation, which is why they (believers) will not be judged.

After all, Christ who knew no sin, already paid for the penalty at the cross, for all of the sins, which others committed (past/present/future).

It is through Christ's substitutionary atonement that provides the peace that passes all understanding.

And as such, believers are not under any judgment, which can be confirmed in Romans 8:1:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Grakman: Further, we are taught that believers will be rewarded for their works with various crowns. How can one determine what crowns one wins if our works are not judged?

Workman: Grakman, would you mind providing a passage for a reference point?

Grakman: On a side note, in your last post it seems as though you hold to both annhilationism and eternal fiery hell. What is your view of the eternal state of a person who does not believe in Jesus Christ?

Workman: First of all; I believe that eternal separation is Hell. I don't think it is necessary to go into detail and attempt to describe it (hell).

But to clarify; I believe that the soul is eternal, and therefore, I believe that for those unbelievers, who reject Christ, and die without Him; they will spend an eternity in hell.

So, I reject the doctrine of annhilationism.
5/25/11 1:04 AM
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Grakman
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Edited: 05/25/11 1:33 AM
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 I think we're still confusing salvation with escape from any judgment or rewards for believers. I did not say that the verse in Corinthians pertained to salvation per se, I specifically cited it as a reference to the testing of the works of believers, whom you have said are not judged in any way.

Regarding the advocate, yes I have heard of lawyers.  Christ's death paid the penalty for sin (what is the penatly for sin?), yet Paul admonishes believers to refrain from sin (why?), but promises if they do sin they have an advocate with the father. Didn't you say that Jesus already paid the penalty for sins, past present and future? If so why is there any need for advocacy if it's all a done deal, and why can't believers sin without fear? (Be a sinner and sin more strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ?- Martin Luther)   
5/25/11 1:45 AM
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Grakman
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 You may be unaware Workman, but I am a Christian Universalist. That means that I believe that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of the entire world, and that in due time all of creation will be reconciled to the Father, until he is all in all. Our Father's discipline for sins is always remedial in nature, and will not exceed that needed to bring the sinner to repentance, whether in this life or the next. 

I don't know if you were already aware of this or not and whether or not you would like to continue this discussion. It is relevant in that I do not see salvation as an escape from eternal hell. Salvation to me is freedom from sin, forgiveness of sin, being made whole, having a relationship with our Creator, knowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - most of which seem to be taken for granted today in the narrowly focused view of salvation as a Get Out of Hell free card. 

You may have a better understanding now of why we are having some difficulty communicating about salvation and judgment and how works is related to either, because we appear to see the purpose and outcome of each somewhat differently.
5/25/11 3:35 PM
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Grakman
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 I wanted to let you all know that I will be on hiatus from the UG / Holyground for awhile. I don't normally bother to tell anyone that I won't be posting very often because I think it can come across as being a bit of an attention whore, but I've been involved in a lot of debates on several threads and I feel I ought to let everyone know that I am not merely ignoring their posts.
 
Anyway, I just wanted to say God bless and love to all (yes even to you Calvinists :-P )
 
Later!
5/25/11 3:51 PM
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Grakman
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5/26/11 1:14 AM
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Workman
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Grakman: I think we're still confusing salvation with escape from any judgment or rewards for believers. I did not say that the verse in Corinthians pertained to salvation per se, I specifically cited it as a reference to the testing of the works of believers, whom you have said are not judged in any way.

My reply: My apologies Grakman! Given that this thread pertains to entrance into Heaven (aka Salvation); when you asked me about all people being judged, I was referring strictly to the penalty of death, for the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Now I see that you have been taking about the doctrine of rewards for those who are saved.

Yes, there certainly will be another type of judgment, whereby, the works of believers will be judged.

In context, the passage in question refers to church builders. However, it applies to all true believers in Christ.

This is why Paul uses some agricultural terminology (planting and watering) to illustrate his point in addressing trivial bitter rivalries (1 Cor 3:8):

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."

Paul then uses an architectural analogy to address all those who build the churches (1 Cor 3:10):

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

Paul is providing a warning, but as well, encouragement o the leaders who bare responsibility within the churches.

From verses 12 to 15, Paul indicates that some church leaders are attempting to build the church with improper materials.

Though they may often work hard, if misguided, their works will be in vain, fruitless, as there is nothing transformative without the proper building materials.

Notice the contrast of building materials is hi-lighted between precious stones and stubble (1 Cor 3:12).

In verse 13, we see that the fire will reveal and test the Believer's work in this area of building the church,

Verse 14 confirms that, for those Believers who continue building on the foundation of Christ, he will receive a reward.

And for the persons who are 'saved so as by fire', though they are indeed saved; there leadership is has been flawed, for the reason that he has relied disproportionately upon his own strategies, techniques, methods, training, etc (1 Cor 3:15).

As such, this illustrates that, these said persons did not approach the undertaking of building churches with the appropriate spirit of dependance and faith.

Paul's message applies to all Born Again Believers, as each Believer is building his/her own life, day by day.

And as such, each Believer will be tested, which will expose a mixture of precious stones and stubble.

Grakman: Regarding the advocate, yes I have heard of lawyers. Christ's death paid the penalty for sin (what is the penatly for sin?), yet Paul admonishes believers to refrain from sin (why?), but promises if they do sin they have an advocate with the father. Didn't you say that Jesus already paid the penalty for sins, past present and future? If so why is there any need for advocacy if it's all a done deal, and why can't believers sin without fear? (Be a sinner and sin more strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ?- Martin Luther)

Workman: The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23).

In Romans 6, Paul is encouraging Believers to refrain from sin because they have been born again, and as new borns need guidance and direction, so does (new) born again Christians.

The reason that Paul informs Believers of the Advocate (Christ Jesus), is because, it is through the Advocate that is the means of restoring fellowship (not to be confused with Salvation) with God, the Father.

In other words, sin destroys our relationship with God, but confession restores it, which is why Believers are exhorted to take theirs confessions of sin to the Advocate, Christ Jesus (1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:1).

And yes, Christ Jesus already paid for the sin; past, present, and future, which is precisely why He does not have to die again, and again, and again, to pay for the present-future sins of Believers.

I pray that I have made my position a lot clearer given that I believe that I now have a better understanding of what you are asking.
5/26/11 1:24 AM
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Workman
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Grakman: You may be unaware Workman, but I am a Christian Universalist. That means that I believe that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of the entire world, and that in due time all of creation will be reconciled to the Father, until he is all in all. Our Father's discipline for sins is always remedial in nature, and will not exceed that needed to bring the sinner to repentance, whether in this life or the next.

Workman: Though I assume that someone must have already quoted Hebrews 9:27, but; how do you explain this passage that is unambiguous in stating that it is impossible to be granted salvation after death, since it so clearly states that after death, then the judgment?

Grakman: I don't know if you were already aware of this or not and whether or not you would like to continue this discussion. It is relevant in that I do not see salvation as an escape from eternal hell. Salvation to me is freedom from sin, forgiveness of sin, being made whole, having a relationship with our Creator, knowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - most of which seem to be taken for granted today in the narrowly focused view of salvation as a Get Out of Hell free card.

Workman: I certainly wouldn't disagree with much of what you've stated here; minus the doctrine of Universalism. I must admit that I believe it to be a false gospel.

Grakman: You may have a better understanding now of why we are having some difficulty communicating about salvation and judgment and how works is related to either, because we appear to see the purpose and outcome of each somewhat differently.

Workman: Grakman, we both readily accept that there is obviously a Biblical doctrine of Faith, and a Biblical doctrine of Works; where we have problems understanding each other, is in the relationship between Faith and Works.

And I am not so sure that we have yet explored it enough to close the gap.
5/26/11 1:29 AM
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Workman
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Grakman: I wanted to let you all know that I will be on hiatus from the UG / Holyground for awhile. I don't normally bother to tell anyone that I won't be posting very often because I think it can come across as being a bit of an attention whore, but I've been involved in a lot of debates on several threads and I feel I ought to let everyone know that I am not merely ignoring their posts.

Workman: I for one am very grateful that you'd choose to communicate to us that you will be on hiatus.

I must admit, I do find your timing a bit inconvenient, as I truly have enjoyed kicking the can with you on these various, multiple topics.

And each day I have thought of you less and less of an agitator;)

May you have a peaceful and restful time away, but come back soon.

Workman

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